There is a terrible lukewarmness about this time as prophesied, but what exactly does it look like? Rev 3:17 teaches that the main characteristic is a false perception of self. Many will claim the riches of Christ who will not claim their own poverty of spirit. They will make much noise about how they are Christ’s and will receive all His riches, yet they will not admit that they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. They may lukewarmly take the title of sinner, yet refuse to own all which that means. It means the nature which we possess despises God, it means not only do we have NOTHING good in who we are but we are nothing of which God consists, it means we are opposed to God to our very core, in short it means we are ENTIRELY ungodly.
Now God imparts His nature on top of those who He claims as His children, but these children recognize that this nature is not of themselves, it is God’s who will give to whomsoever He will. With this new nature imparted we can turn Godward, yet with our old nature remaining (the only one we are allowed to claim as us) we are to be constantly reminded we are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. We are never to disown who we truly are, for doing so is the mark of lukewarmness. It is to be as the Pharisee who thanked God that he was not as other men are (Luke 18:11). This is why the drunkards and harlots will enter the kingdom of heaven before most who profess the name of Christ. They actually feel their own condition right to the core, they know who they are!
I see the corruptions in the world today, I see how far opposed to God the world is, and I look in my own heart and realize that I am exactly like other men are, and were it not for the restraining grace of God, their thoughts/words/deeds might be mine.
We may be granted ability to forsake gross outward sin, we may be granted restraining grace for a season to try us, for us to see where our hearts really are, but what do we see because of it? Has the eye salve been applied, that we may see that we are ENTIRELY ungodly? Or are we lukewarm in our perception of self?
Rev 3:17-18 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Heed the warning thou lukewarm professor, Christ is speaking to US.
will be getting back to this when i get a chance, just wanted you to know i read it…my first thought is that the pharisee you keep refering to is not saved and does not the holy spirit in him…I say that bc i have consistently said that we agree on the face that the Lord does bring us to our ungodliness and yes, even after salvation we know who and what we truly are…there are lots of “but Gods” in Gods word…we are wretched and vile but God…..For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that , denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and saviour Jesus Christ who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from every from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people zealous for good works, SPEAK these things exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:11-15 (pretty close to the same thing in King James Version also) so we differ on the fact that the word of God says NOTHING about claiming to be ENTIRELY ungodly AFTER salvation…it speaks about being godly, That is all we are differing on, I say I am a complete wretched, vile sinner but you say you are entirely ungodly although scripture does not say that about you now. And of course the only way I can be anything BUT UNGODLY is by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in me….we agree on the condition Lee, not the word…it seems as if you would deny the power of the Holy Spirit by claiming to be ENTIRELY anything..anyway, this is just my thoughts right now….
It comes down to this. Are you as other men are? Are you as the adulterer is? Are you as the unjust are? They are entirely ungodly. To say you are not as other men are (entirely ungodly), is to be the Pharisee. And yes, the Pharisee was not saved. That is why I keep telling you this is important, because it’s IMPORTANT.
Luke 18:10-12 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
As Christ is 100% God and 100% man so those who are regenerated in Christ are 100% ungodly and counted 100% godly at the same time. What remains of self is 100% ungodly, and what is of Christ in the believer is 100% godly, yet because it is of Christ it is not for the believer to claim it of himself, only rather that he is counted godly for Christ’s sake. The unbeliever is ONLY ungodly and has no possibility of being godly apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Yet on the other side of this, the religionist will not admit to being ungodly, and thereby sets up a righteousness based in self. This is why Paul says so clearly that Christ only died only for the ungodly, specifically for those who see themselves as ungodly.
actually, it doesnt matter about the pharisee, it was just a first thought….
ok i just typed that without reading your post…give me a minute
The unbeliever is ONLY ungodly and has no possibility of being godly apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
Exactly…ungodly APART from the holy spirit,
I am ungodly apart form the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit with in me…the problem is YOU do not think the Holy Spirit resides in me….
before posting this I typed two paragraphs and then realized that it doesnt even matter what I SAY…you have me decided on what little you know about me…you are trying to get me to a place that the Lord Himself has brought me to and by His continuing grace , when I see myself for who and what i am He draws me to Him and the power of the cross to remind me that I am now HIS child, no longer condemned…I am in the battle paul descrribes, the one spurgeon preaches on, the one you experience daily…you have your beliefs based on your understanding of scripture and you see some things differently than i do…I read some about the Plymouth brethren and I get that you think all established churches are apostate or on there way and that you do not even come close to knowing me or what I do, think or say but the Lord does and that is what matters…I think you assume soem things about me like you have me figured out by judging me by a group but that isnt right and I do not now want to judge you by a group…..I read some on the plymouth brethren and I now I have some opinions and being the sinner that I am I could wrongly judge you based on my thoughts but I wont…..
The Pharisee matters….
When the Holy Spirit resides in a believer they know the difference between themselves and Christ in them. Like the publican they know that all they can claim for themselves is that they are ungodly, they understand that they are only counted godly for Christ’s sake.
Unlike the Pharisee, they understand that they themselves are as ungodly as the ungodliest of men are, and have put no difference between themselves and the ungodliest of men.
This is the meaning of this parable.
Luke 14:8-11 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Laodicean Lordship would have you sit at a higher place, but Christ says take the lowest place, the place of the ungodly.
see, I do not exalt myself nor do I think more highly than I should, I have the holy spirit conviction of who I am…..I exalt Christ and only Christ. I am not going to try to convince you of me…this should only point thse who read it to Christ…The holy spirit is leading me…
For anyone that would be reading this, yes we our ungodly and need to put our trust and faith in Christ..He died for us while we were yet sinners….Lee and I agree on this and MANY other things that he may not even be aware of…
I am not understanding where in lordship man is exalted and Christ is not…but again, remember that I defended lordship to the point that I understand it and that has been explained at the original blog that converstaion comes from…I stated very clearly what I believe the teaching to say and that is what I see in scripture…I know the original 2nd post has been removed but i have made clear to the author of that blog, not to follow the man that she believes to be a false teacher (that may have been via email)..my point in the post was not to defend him or any other teacher but to correct the mistakes in her post, which were never addressed, and to warn her of calling someone a false teacher without being sure of what she spoke. I see that you do not like the teaching for what i am sure is a valid reason, the readers of that blog could benefit from you explaining why. The author of that blog is putting out things that are not true and therefore the arguing ensues…the mistakes are being focused on instead of what you see as the real issue.
I am reading the things you have sent and have been reading on the dual nature and single nature. I am not just sitting here trying to find things to back up what you assume my position to be….whether i have two naturse, one being ungodly one OR i have one nature with two principles, one being ungodly I do not understand…as spurgeon said, “Great is the mystery of godliness, the believer is a great riddle to those who observe him- he is discerned of no man”. He says that the christian is two men in one and he says THERE ARE IN ALL BELIEVERS TWO PRINCIPLES…..SERMON 1459B I know that holy spirit dwells in me and that I can be wrong about alot if not most things. The links you send and the things that the Lord leads me to when having this conversation with you just confirms in me that I DO believe as Paul and as Spurgeon and as Jeramiah Burrows, and John Newton…maybe I posted out of pride or a misplaced sense of defending the word of God…I felt led to correct Jean on the things she said…so that could have just been pride
I pray that you post a blog that would point out the exact ways that the lordship teaching is exalting man…i for one would read it and be in prayer about it. Again, I do not know all things and I do not presume to know all about lordhip other than what I find in scripture.
To be fair to the lady at the other blog, I may have used different phraseology, but she was spot on, and came to the conclusions on her own. She could even have used much stronger language and not been out of line with regards to the false teacher.
I came by to help in her defense because I knew she would be in for a large spiritual battle against those who professed to have been her friends.
The Spurgeon sermon gets close to the matter at hand and defines the battle, but doesn’t get down to drawing the lines of ownership.
I will post it here
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1459B.pdf
Compare the Spurgeon sermon to the false teacher referred to.
Spurgeon
“THERE ARE IN ALL BELIEVERS TWO PRINCIPLES. The Apostle speaks of the law of his mind
and then of another law in his members warring against the law of his mind. The converted man is a new man in Christ
Jesus, but the old nature remains within him. The first life in a Christian, in order of time, is the old Adam nature. It is
there from the first. It is born of and with the flesh and it remains in us after we are born of the Spirit, for the second
birth does not destroy in us the products of the first birth.”
Macarthur
“I believe it is a serious misunderstanding to think of the believer as having both an old and new nature. Believers do not have dual personalities…there is no such thing as an old nature in the believer”
“The biggest difficulty in believing that sin is a vanquished foe is the constant conflict believers have with sin. When you destroy people’s convenient theological categories by teaching what God really says–that there is only one nature in the believer–many don’t know how to respond”
“I’m not convinced there are two natures; I think you have one new nature that has the possibility of sinning”
“We have a new heart–not an added one, but a whole different one”
This is just the tip of the iceberg with Macarthur’s heretical teachings….
The lesson to learn from the Pharisee and the Publican is, that if there is such a thing as an ungodly man (and we know that there is), then ‘thou art that man’. To deny it is to deny who we are, and to exalt ourselves over the publicans of the world. To talk about the ungodly as though it is just them is a horrible travesty, it is not just them, it is us.
If we can get through the two natures, that is the root of this.
Nature 1 –Sin nature
Who is the cause?
Who is responsible for it?
Who owns it?
Who is it?
Answers: Other than the first one, which makes Adam culpable (and were it not for him I would have done it), the answers for the rest are ‘me’
Nature 2 –Divine nature
Who is the cause?
Who is responsible for it?
Who owns it?
Who is it?
Answers: Christ
For me to make a claim on the divine nature as though it were actually me, is to rob Christ of it. Therefore though the second nature may be counted as mine by imputation, all I can truly own as me is the first nature. That nature is ENTIRELY ungodly.
I have dealt with Lordship theology in two posts already, have you read them?
http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=76
http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=78
In essence, Lordship salvation proponents make no allowance for those who have a battle with the an extremely difficult flesh. It has placed its primary focus on ‘sins’ (what you do) rather than ‘sin’ (who you are). It swings at the branches and misses the root.
I also realize that you are giving the understanding of this an honest go, and I give you much credit for that. Just keep going for it! It is a truth that will require your full reception of to proclaim to those in your own circle of acquaintance, and they will hate you for it….but it must be done.
ok, I am going to read what you posted, to be honest, no I havent read them AND as far as the other teacher, I have not read his writings on the nature of man either…just to let you know, and I mean this with all my heart, the ONLY reason I hate to say entirely anything is because it seems blashemous to deny what is in me EVEN though it is not me, I can say me, the” just me” is entirely ungodly, my flesh, i struggle to say that with the holy spirit in me I am entirely ungodly…does that make sense to you? Not that I am claiming any glory of the work He has done but just that a work HAS been done….let me read what you have posted and I will go back to the article that I read and go from there. I totally understand the pharisee and the publican and believe it or not the men that i listen to preach that passage just the way it should be…I was the pharisee and I thought I was going to heaven because I was a catholic but oh my poor sinner husband now he was a different story….I ended up in a worse spot than my husband ever could have been in (to the appearance of men) and drug down to the bottom of myself, in a way I never thought I would be and God did show me that I am sin and ungodly…I get the pharisee and the tax collector, what I do not get is the denying the change within me…maybe your not denying it but it just seems like it…I see it more as two saved sinners: one praying, forgive me Lord, thank you for the work on the cross, thank you for saving me, thank you for working in me and the other one saying Lord forgive me, rotten me, i am so terrible but NEVER getting to the thankfulness of salvation, not able to live out that salvation, not looking to the love of Christ and being so overjoyed and thankful that every time that sinner sees the rotteness they immediately go back to looking to Jesus and not themselves…tell me if this does not make sense to you….I will read it….
are you saying that to teach the single nature view is heretical? Is that why you would call Dr Macarthur a false teacher?
You wrote:
“I get the pharisee and the tax collector, what I do not get is the denying the change within me…maybe your not denying it but it just seems like it”
I am not asking you to deny any change within you, I am asking you to renounce ALL credit for it. I am asking you to realize that it truly is not you, it is ONLY and ENTIRELY Him, and that can only happen when you see yourself as ENTIRELY ungodly. If that makes sense?
Like I said earlier, I am a thousand miles from where I started, but I have a million miles to go. I didn’t stay where I was, but my flesh (who I am) has resisted the travel every step of the way. My Travel Agent is entirely responsible for bringing me thus far, and I can claim NOTHING of it for myself. That is the war in Romans 7!
You wrote:
“are you saying that to teach the single nature view is heretical? Is that why you would call Dr Macarthur a false teacher?”
YES! and that is only the beginning!
He denied the eternal Sonship of Christ (since renounced) with no subsequent conversion. If the Spirit is not testifying to one of the right person of Christ (John 15:26), that means one is not saved. PERIOD! In the time when he denied the eternal Sonship of Christ he was lost. He records no subsequent conversion. No matter how much truth he may emit, he is still lost! Unfortunately those on the Lordship side are almost infatuated with him.
We should talk about Wesley and Aldersgate one of these days.
I am not asking you to deny any change within you, I am asking you to renounce ALL credit for it. I am asking you to realize that it truly is not you, it is ONLY and ENTIRELY Him, and that can only happen when you see yourself as ENTIRELY ungodly. If that makes sense?
that does make sense and I thought I did make it clear that I take NO, ZERO, NONE credit for anything done in me, through me that is good…and that if this is what you meant by entirely ungodly then yes that is what I am….where I am right now, before checking into anything: I see that lordship to mean a principle at eh time of conversion not a practice lived out afterwards…like, when God saves you, you know He is Lord, you admit that He is all and you are nothing, you KNOW you are not the master and He is..you just see God and Christ for who and what they are…not this, oh yeah, i dont wanna go to hell let me have some Jesus…do YOU say people can have Jesus on their own terms? Not as He really is?
I cannot speak to statement you made about macarthur denying sonship as I have never heard that before…I just think if you call him a false teacher because he doesnt agree on the nature of man AFTER conversion then that would not be right…To be a false teacher you teach a false way to salvation and what we are discussing is man AFTER conversion not prior to conversion…God does the saving, He saves us without us knowing every detail of it…that is why I say in principle every man saved comes to Jesus as Lord even if they do not know it because He is Lord…but we do not change the fact that He is Lord in our speech to the unsaved because Christ didnt…ok, that is all I have for now, I do want to read some more and get back into scripture on this…
so who is the real me after conversion? the flesh or the spirit? If I am not to walk as the ungodly then why do I refer to “the real me” as the ungodly after conversion…wouldnt the “real me” that is living eternally with God and has been redeemed by the blood of His Son now the real me?
we totally agree on the real us before conversion but I am seeing the new man as being me…didnt Paul tell us to crucify the old man and walk as the new and cant that struggle take place without it seeming like we are taking any credit for that new man?
If Spurgeon explains it the way that he does which is how I was understanding and explaining it do you say that Spurgeon was not saved or that he is a false teacher? I want to be sure you arent saying that ANYONE that does not call it two distinct natures but maybe refers to it as did spurgeon, flesh/spirit, old man new man etc….are not saved? I do not mean Macarthur, I mean all the rest of christians that may not even have thgouht all this through?
ok, I am throwing this out without really thinking it through….
Can you speak to this?
There is not one text in the New Testament that teaches that regeneration is the implanting of a “new nature” beside the old, or, that the renewed man has two hostile natures. What he does have is two hostile principles in one nature.
But I see another law in my members, warring against my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (Gal. 5:17). For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish (Rom. 7:23). Here the great apostle teaches that the renewed man (one man and one nature still) is imperfect having two principles of volition mixed in the motives of the same acts. Paul does not teach in these passages, or any other, that the renewed man becomes “two men.”
Good points of discussion. I am out for the rest of the day and will respond to the rest by tomorrow morning.
If you re-read the Spurgeon sermon you mentioned he does deal rightly in recognizing the Adam nature remaining until physical death.
“The converted man is a new man in Christ
Jesus, but the old nature remains within him. The first life in a Christian, in order of time, is the old Adam nature. It is
there from the first. It is born of and with the flesh and it remains in us after we are born of the Spirit, for the second
birth does not destroy in us the products of the first birth.
…..
Some fancy that the carnal mind is to be improved, gradually tamed
and sanctified—but it is enmity against God and is not reconciled to God—neither, indeed, can be. The old nature is of
the earth, earthy, and must be crucified with Christ and buried with Him, for it is altogether too bad for mending! This
old nature lives in our members, that is to say, its nest is the body and it works through the body.”
Your questions are in quotes/italics
“I see that lordship to mean a principle at the time of conversion not a practice lived out afterwards”
That is quite opposite of the definition of Lordship Salvation. LS is actually concerned with the practice lived out afterwards. It is not just a receiving of Christ as Lord, but is concerned with submission to Christ as Lord. As I wrote in my post on Husbandship, one can submit to a lord without loving him, and one can love a lord without submitting to him. LS is the equivalent of reformed popery, or reformed Islam.
“do YOU say people can have Jesus on their own terms? Not as He really is?”
No. Jesus is Jehovah, nothing changes that. Abraham saw Christ in Gen 17:1, it takes the Holy Spirit to enlighten a person to understand that (1 Cor 12:3), yet enlightenment does not mean conversion.
“To be a false teacher you teach a false way to salvation and what we are discussing is man AFTER conversion not prior to conversion”
A false teacher teaches either: a false perception of Christ and His work, or a false perception of self. Macarthur has failed on both accounts.
“that is why I say in principle every man saved comes to Jesus as Lord even if they do not know it because He is Lord”
It is one thing to be ignorant of a truth, it is entirely another thing to oppose it.
so who is the real me after conversion? the flesh or the spirit? If I am not to walk as the ungodly then why do I refer to “the real me” as the ungodly after conversion…wouldnt the “real me” that is living eternally with God and has been redeemed by the blood of His Son now the real me?
we totally agree on the real us before conversion but I am seeing the new man as being me…didnt Paul tell us to crucify the old man and walk as the new and cant that struggle take place without it seeming like we are taking any credit for that new man?
The real you after conversion is the same you as before the conversion (you must own that you are just like other men). The difference is that something new has been imparted to you by another, and is COUNTED as you. This new thing in you is Him, otherwise you would have been worthy to open the book (Rev 5:2-4). If the new man was you, then you would be worthy to open the book, but as it is neither you nor I are worthy to open it.
The believer is never to take ANY credit for that new man in the struggle, that is rooted in pride which is precisely the LS route. If he were honest with himself he would see his pride as one of those very things he would be claiming to be putting to death.
The world of difference here is to understand exactly what is you and what is COUNTED as you.
If Spurgeon explains it the way that he does which is how I was understanding and explaining it do you say that Spurgeon was not saved or that he is a false teacher? I want to be sure you arent saying that ANYONE that does not call it two distinct natures but maybe refers to it as did spurgeon, flesh/spirit, old man new man etc….are not saved?
To say one has a sin nature is to say one has inherited it by natural lineal descent, for that is what a ‘nature’ is. When one can rightly renounce they were born the first time the natural way, then they can deny they have a sin nature. Only Christ could ever make that claim. To teach otherwise does indeed make one a false teacher. As quoted earlier, Spurgeon clearly understands the two natures residing in a believer, one by their first (natural) birth, and the other by their second (supernatural) birth.
Again, it is one thing to be ignorant of a truth, it is entirely another thing to oppose it.
Speaking to this:
“There is not one text in the New Testament that teaches that regeneration is the implanting of a “new nature” beside the old, or, that the renewed man has two hostile natures. What he does have is two hostile principles in one nature.
But I see another law in my members, warring against my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (Gal. 5:17). For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish (Rom. 7:23). Here the great apostle teaches that the renewed man (one man and one nature still) is imperfect having two principles of volition mixed in the motives of the same acts. Paul does not teach in these passages, or any other, that the renewed man becomes “two men.””
To state this is be the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 mentioned earlier. Either one admits they are like other men who have a sin nature or they deny it as this Pharisee did. Man doesn’t lose his original sin nature until he loses his body to the grave. This nature was born naturally and must die naturally. To say that one has two principles residing in the new nature of their supernatural birth is blasphemy of the highest sort. It is to attribute this ‘hostile principle’ so-called, to the the supernatural birth brought forth of the Holy Spirit.
you said:
As I wrote in my post on Husbandship, one can submit to a lord without loving him, and one can love a lord without submitting to him. LS is the equivalent of reformed popery, or reformed Islam.
what about you love Him so you submit to Him…You DO submit because you are His and you respond to His lordship due to the simple fact that He is Lord
you said:
A false teacher teaches either: a false perception of Christ and His work, or a false perception of self. Macarthur has failed on both accounts.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/593
this is what Macarthur says about what he thought about Christ even during the time he was wrong about Sonship….I have never heard him teach of a man being anything other than a vile sinner, wretched from birth…..that is why I say he differs on his opinion of mans nature AFTER conversion….again he never teaches perfection and never dismisses the struggle of the flesh and the spirit
But that is just Macarthur…..I am talking about other preachers that I know would in essence agree with Lordship to the point of this: I quote: “what is faith?
It is more than a mental assent to the facts-not lordship facts not savior facts. It is a heartfelt coming to CHrist and resting in Him for what He is and what He offers. It is an act of the heart that no longer hates the light but comes to the light…lordship salvation is NOT-emphatically NOT-anything other than salvation by faith (true faith) in the LORD Jesus Christ”..
this is quoting a man that agrees with lordship so how can you say he means one thing when he says this? This is where you are throwing me…these people (not just macarthur) are flat out saying what they think lordship is and it is not what was represented on the previous blog…there are others i could quote but they say the same thing…they say you come to Christ as Lord because He is Lord…yes you are vile sinner, yes He is a Holy God and when He saves you, you will love Him because He first loved you, your life will be in accordance with scripture and yes, that includes sin…not perfection…not lack of sin, there is scripture that is in the word that speaks to knowing you are saved by this or that…the evidences…and that includes your love for Christ, your love for light and not darkness…
LS is actually concerned with the practice lived out afterwards…
I understand that alot of preachers are concerned with the texts in scripture that is concerned with the practice lived out afterwards…
again, it seems that instead of saying that lordship teaches something that a whole lot of lordship proponents do not teach would it not serve the body to speak specifically to a person and his teaching instead of generalizing? you are putting people into a spot where you are the judge of what you think they mean when they speak….that sounds like a dangerous place to be in and that is why I am posting to you and posted to jean, not to argue a point but to say that you cannot say that people mean one thing when they say something else..
…here is what spurgeon says: If the professed convert distinctly and deliberatly declares that he knows the Lords will, but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumptions but it is your duty to assure him that he is not saved…..that is how I am understand ing lordship…you come to Christ as He is and your life will show it…thats all….i do not speak for a man but for me……..
as far as what i asked you to speak to up top, I was wondering if you could provide the scripture in the New Testament that speaks to the two men instead of one man, two laws (principles) that Paul speaks of….what I quoted was taken from the other side of the dual nature theory…i get the old man new man, crucify the old man, NEW creature created in Christ…..seem to sound like me and spurgeonm saying it all…
But in the end I know that the preachers I listen
to absolutely teach the nature of fallen man before a holy God…they do not teach salvation by works…they teach Christ in His fullness leaving out nothing…they teach a saving gospel……..
.I have heard all kinds and I am well aware that they are out there…in abundance…matter of fact its hard to find the one preaching the truth…but where I am they still exist…..we have to be cautious and stay in scripture and follow the Lord…i do not assume they are right in all that they say…they are sinful men as are we….they are fallible….
of course I am as all men, sinful…of course I have hope that lost men do not, I strive to not walk as the gentiles walk, I walk in the light as scripture commands
And you, who were once estranged and hostile in mind doing evil deeds He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His own death, in oreder to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before Him provided
that you continue in the faith stable and steadfast not shifting from the hope of the gospel, which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I , Paul, became a minister Col1:21-23
husband wants to know: dichotomy or trichotomy in the nature of man?
forgot my scripture references: if anyone loves me he will keep my word and my father wil love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him John 14:23
and why do you call me Lord Lord and do not do what I say ? Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and acts upon them I will show you whom he is like …..Luke 6:46
“what about you love Him so you submit to Him…”
Define submit.
As ‘submit’ is currently defined by LS advocates you have to write Solomon out of heaven, David out of heaven, the smoking Spurgeon out of Heaven, the fat Moody out of heaven, the list gets pretty long….
These men did not submit to the will of God when they overate, smoked, killed, and idolized, yet they loved God and each of these men are His. The LS interpretation of Matt 7:21 would have them cast out of heaven, but we do believe these men are children of God, therefore the will of God must be something different than that proposed by LS advocates.
Better off to just truly love Him, trusting Him to work out the rest.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/edify/What_is_Love.html
What exactly is the will of God? And how do you know you are doing it?
JM writes:
“The “incarnational sonship” view, while admittedly a minority opinion, is by no means rank heresy.”
It is always fascinating to watch a heretic justify his heresy as ‘not so bad’. Almost akin to asking Hitler’s opinion of his eugenics program.
Nevertheless instead of just saying he was wrong, and denouncing the heresy properly, he goes into how Augustine was so humble in reconsidering his own ‘little errors’ attempting to attribute that humility to himself. He just never gets any better…. The Devil has his counterfeits for nearly every grace of God, the only one he has not been able to counterfeit closely is humility.
Theologically speaking, by denying the two natures in man Macarthur attributes man’s sin after regeneration to the Holy Spirit instead of to man. To propose that there is something in man’s new nature that sins…. thereby attributes that sin to the nature put forth of the Holy Spirit in the second birth. Your nature is that which you are born with, the first nature comes by natural birth, the second nature by spiritual birth.
Ask your husband if he is in the habit of inviting people he considers dangerous wolves into his church? Tell him if he is ever going to be a good wolf hunter he can’t do that. The least he can do if he is going to be a good wolf hunter is to exercise a bit of discernment and not invite those he considers dangerous/persuasive wolves into his church. That is why it would be pretty scary to attend there, who knows who else he has invited?
Answer to his question: Trichotomy with dichotomous natures.
Lordship looks to a formality and morality that can be accomplished through legalism as its ‘evidence’ so-called of salvation. The problem is that the ability to accomplish these things is also possible for the unbeliever, thereby annulling this as an evidence to be looked for.
Summed up reasonably well here.
http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/topics/sinnatur.html
Or here
http://www.gracenotes.info/topics/sinnatur.html
Edit to add:
An excellent example of the moral ascetic was Jonathan Edwards. If you read his resolutions you found he had very high aims, yet for something so base as the sake of vanity he shaved his head and wore a wig to fit in with the bigwigs.
He is a brother in Christ, but moral asceticism of his resident sin nature often got the better of him, which the Lord made manifest in his vanity.
Might as well add this as well.
http://www.fashionencyclopedia.com/fashion_costume_culture/European-Culture-17th-Century/Wigs.html
submit as defined in Strongs concordance when used in James in reference to “submit to God” is to rank or place under, put in subjection…ie we are to submit to one another, wives submit to your husbands, submit to God, its scriptural to submit……
i would say it is just responding to the truth of who Christ is…I am not sure how you say LS advocates define it and I know there are extremes in LS just as in anything else and it may be those of
whom you speak…it seems that you say LS teaches lack of sin as an evidence of being saved, possibly, I do not speak for them all but I know the men I listen to teach evidences such as looking to Christ, loving Christ, desiring Christ …let me quote “love for God
, repentance from sin, genuine humility, devotion to Gods glory, continual prayer, selfless love, seperation from the world, spiritual growth, obedient living (Matt 7:21, Jn 15:14, Rom 16:26, 1 Peter 1:2, 1john 2:3-5) just to note, this DOES NOT say perfect obedience nor does it say no sinning, I know the last time I quoted something like this by someone else you disagreed so I thought I should put scripture…
, hunger for Gods word, transformation of life…with scripture references listed along side of each…what I am saying is that it is not all focused on manifestation of sin in your life…it focuses on your entire life…yes, David sinned grieviously but Davids life was lived with a love for God and with sorrow and repentance and with humility and a regard to do what was right in the sight of God….
…..like I said, there are those that are legalistic as well as those who are antinomion but they do not represent all who do or do not believe in LS….I get that you are speaking to a certain group..
Better off to just truly love Him, trusting Him to work out the rest
AMEN
if anyone loves me he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him John 14:23
we can trust Him to work out all of the things we have been discussing..
What exactly is the will of God? And how do you know you are doing it?
what I see in scripture: Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks for this is Gods will for you in Christ Jesus…1Thess 5:16-18
His will is for us to trust in His Son
Now, as to your next post about my husband, thank you for answering his question, he has graciously allowed me to have this conversation with you, against his better judgement, no doubt but I will say that we invite all to the church building, not all preach teach and serve but all are invited to come hear the word of God, and no this is not what my husbands response to you would have been, these are my words…I cannot hear your tone in your post so I may have taken that the wrong way…I certainly didnt feel love, humility or peace when I read it but I could be wrong…I spoke to the evidence earlier, I know some preach about evidence of blatant ongoing unrepentant sin as being a need to examine yourself in the light of scripture because scripture says that…I know they also preach the glory of God the Love of Christ, the love of others the fruit of the spirit, they preach it all not just sin manifestations…I have enjoyed our conversation and it has given me alot to ponder and I see a need to be careful about coming down too heavy on one issue above another…I know that if something is being percieved in a negative way then it must be examined in the light of scripture….as far as our original post on the dual nature I will continue my study as it is something i never even gave a second thought…I wish you peace and joy in your walk with the Lord….
The conversation was good. As you check the two natures of the Christian and come to a greater understanding of it, the LS stuff will fall by the wayside.
Here is some follow-up fodder on the matter.
http://www.e-grace.net/ilsrs.html
http://www.dtl.org/salvation/article/guest/lordship-1.htm
A bland and neutral definition of the term which is actually a relatively new invention being only 50 years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_Salvation
PS: The Lord has made many opportunities for me to preach in the church foyer or parking lot, that is why your husband ought not invite those of us he considers dangerous/persuasive types into his church. We are dangerous to the status quo in religion and the persuasiveness which comes only by Holy Spirit works equally well in bathroom or the pulpit.
Lee, AMEN and AMEN! May the Lord bless you brother in your walk. This blog and your website is one of the few genuine sites I have come accross on the web.
Only those who are truly owned by Christ see themselves as the rest of the world. I am just like my unsaved next door neighbour. I am just like my athiest friend. I am in no way better than her in thought, word or deed. I am entirely ungodly today.
It is only pride that can make us think we are any better than anyone else! I used to have that pride, even after I was saved. This is why I so agree with you when you say
“We may be granted ability to forsake gross outward sin, we may be granted restraining grace for a season to try us, for us to see where our hearts really are, but what do we see because of it? Has the eye salve been applied, that we may see that we are ENTIRELY ungodly? Or are we lukewarm in our perception of self?”
Many who proffess Christ with much zeal are blind to this truth! As you say trust Christ and leave the rest to Him. Amen. Thats all we can do, learn from Him and take His yoke, so many times we are so heavy laden by the yoke of legalism, but if only we trust Him.
Those who shout you cant be truly saved if you cant submit to Christ as Lord and all the rest of it, its just that they desire slavery to freedom. They desire to be in bondage, they know not the grace of God. Therefor they despise and mock those who are sons, the true Bride Of Christ, that is neither of the Lordship Camp or of Easy Believism Camp. They are the Bride Of Christ!
You got it sister!!!!
And thanks!
God bless you, brother Lee!!
I have been encouraged tremendously by this post.
The aposle Paul clearly describes this battle in Romans 7:15-25. Even though we have been given a new (divine) nature upon receiving salvation, every christian still has to fight the flesh (sin nature) that resides in us. The everyday battles that we face when our flesh wars against our spirit should bear witness with our spirit that we are not better than anyone else, and that apart from the grace of God, there would be absolutely nothing godly about us.
Thanks Tenisha! It is indeed a battle.