This PRIVILEGE, though beautiful when it exists has not always existed.
Throughout history, the privilege of assembly of saints has been both granted and withdrawn from the Lord’s people, by the Lord Himself. This privilege has been both exercised and denied in places like Russian prison camps etc. Even the Russians learned that when the privilege of assembly was withdrawn, the Lord’s people grew stronger.
Many today treat this privilege of assembly as though it were the 11th commandment, and thereby give evidence that their life is in the church, not in Christ Himself. They treat it as though the attending of church fulfills a commandment of the law, and thereby attain some level of personal righteousness by it. Make no mistake people, just as it is a privilege and not a command, to fellowship with God through prayer; so to assemble with saints is a PRIVILEGE and not a COMMAND. What you need to be prepared for as we near the return of Christ is the withdrawal of this privilege, and all the more as we see it being withdrawn today. Those who make the privilege of assembly into a command, are merely doing their duty to turn the sheep back in toward the wolves. The wolves are in the pen!
When assembling is looked upon not as a privilege but as a command, you can know that the time is near for the coming of Christ. For having failed in the preventing of worship, Satan turns again to the commanding of worship as he did in the time of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan 3:4-6). At such time in the future, it will cost you your head NOT to assemble for worship (Rev 13:15). It will no longer be a privilege to assemble with brothers in Christ, but rather it will be a command to assemble for the worship of the beast. His horns will trimmed such that you cannot see them, his ugliness will be masked with beauty, he will be turned to a real fellowship kind of guy for just the purpose of receiving worship. This assembly will take place in churches, cathedrals, mosques; it will be facilitated by pastors, priests, imams; and will be all alike for the worship of the beast.
These things must be well set up before the removal of the saints through rapture, so that those who remain in the church will be easily beguiled into following their instructions. The table is set….
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Thank you for posting Lee, I have a lot think on this one. I actually thought the assembling of the saints was a command.
Also you say prayer is a privilege, which I agree to some degree. But the scripture also says, Pray without ceasing, is this not a command? I mean do we always pray because we want to, or at times we pray because we have to, even when we feel discouraged…
Whats the difference between command and privilege?? Maybe thats what I need to understand….
Dictionary definitions:
Privilege : a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most; the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
Command : to direct with specific authority or prerogative; order; to require authoritatively; demand; to have or exercise authority or control over; be master of; have at one’s bidding or disposal:
The application:
A command is directed towards mankind in general, whereas a privilege is reserved for the children of God in particular.
‘Pray without ceasing’
Who is it that can pray? It is none but the child of God, because prayer is communion with God. Now the hypocrite may try to pray and even try to pray without ceasing, nevertheless what they are doing is not prayer, because it is not communion with God. What they are doing may be vain repetitions as the heathen (Matt 6:7), or it may the pretence of prayer of the hypocrite (Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40), but it is not prayer. Prayer is a privilege reserved alone for the child of God, and 1 Thess 5:17 is a REMINDER of that privilege.
Let’s look at the verse before, “Rejoice evermore”. Can you imagine trying to command someone to rejoice? It’s like commanding someone to be happy. It’s not possible, for the more you command it, the less they will be able to do it, and in fact they will go the opposite direction. That poor Muslim is ‘commanded’ to pray, and go to prayer he must, five times a day, but command him to rejoice and he will look at you funny. He can’t rejoice, let alone rejoice evermore, because he is not a child of God.
There are certain things in the Bible that are commands directed at mankind in general. IE ‘Thou shalt not kill’. This is a command, and is written on the hearts of all but the most seared of consciences, and it was also even on theirs at one time. Then there are the privileges of being a child of God to which the child of God is reminded of throughout scripture. “Rejoice evermore”, “Pray without ceasing” “love your wives” “submit to your husbands” etc. These stand out as reminders of our privileges as a child of God because in our fallen condition, we are so prone to forget.
Do I need to be commanded to love my wife? No. Why, because I love her. Yet sometimes, other things may cloud my judgment causing me to overlook this, so God has put it in His word as a reminder to me. Do I need to be commanded to pray without ceasing? No. Why, because I love God and desire to fellowship with Him. Yet sometimes, other things may cloud my judgment causing me to overlook this, so this also has God put it in His word as a reminder to me. If I love my wife out of command it is not the love of a husband, but the service of a slave, if I pray to God because of command, it is not the love of a child, but also the service of a slave. Slavery fits in well with the LS group (and Muslims), which is why they see things as commands, but it is far from biblical.
You really should try and define obediance.
Dear Lee,
Your response to Jean is excellent and illuminating. I feel it is *required reading.* But more of the sort of reminder-type as in ‘love your wife/husband.’
Also, love the Saints is a reminder much overlooked.
I hope you know in your heart that we love you,
Janice
Thanks Janice.
Yes I do know so dear sister, and very much likewise to you and Chuck!
Nolan/Casting
Obedience is good, but it is the motive for obedience that defines the Christian.
What is your motive?
Thank you Lee for the explanation. As we grow in Christ, we learn more in Him, I trust the Lord will enlighten me on this subject in His timing. I see what you are saying though. The word also says…
1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 John 3:23And this is his comandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us comandment.
24. And he that keepeth his comandment dwelleth in him, and he in him…
Chapter 5: 2.By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God. and keep His comandements.
3. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous.
I think I TRY to submit to my husband (which much failure most of the time) because the Lord placed in me that desire to want to serve him, but I do not consider myself a good wife. In my opinion which is probably wrong maybe, I think its easier to love a saved submissive wife, and its easier to submit to a saved loving husband. Surely it is a lot easier to submit to a person who is dying to self. To those who do not have saved spouses, the reminder to love/submit feels more like a command, because its often VERY hard to do so. I dont know but thats how I see it.
On the topic. I started attending church because I wanted to, but the desire gradually decreased. I then attended partly because I was told I had to attend, if I did not I was disobeying God. The wonderful thing is that God understands our weaknesses such that He fights for us, His power is demonstrated in our weaknesses. I assemble with my daughter and sons because I want to and get joy in doing so, I also thought I was obeying a command. But nevertheless, whether I understand some doctrines or not, all I know is I love being with other saints, and I hate assembling with hypocrites who deny the Lord yet they say they love Him. I believe God will lead me in all truths, He always does in his timing. Thank you for explaining though.
My motive:
1 John 5:1-4
Nolan
To get around the infallibility of scripture, the ancient Jews, believed any verse could be interpreted at least 100 ways, that way they could satisfy their abundant theologies. Likewise, to list a verse does not clearly explain YOUR motive with regards to it, please enlarge upon YOUR motive for obedience.
Also:
If the above verse is your only motive, and considering your obedience is only partial at best, does your disobedience with regards to the keeping of the commandments disqualify you from being a child of God?
Romans 8:1-2
Nolan
That is a children’s promise and belongs not to a slave. As one who considers himself a slave that promise is not yours to claim, Gal 4:28-31.
You may want to take a look at Isa 47:10-15.
Dear Jean,
You wrote:
“I think I TRY to submit to my husband (which much failure most of the time) because the Lord placed in me that desire to want to serve him, but I do not consider myself a good wife. In my opinion which is probably wrong maybe, I think its easier to love a saved submissive wife, and its easier to submit to a saved loving husband. Surely it is a lot easier to submit to a person who is dying to self. To those who do not have saved spouses, the reminder to love/submit feels more like a command, because its often VERY hard to do so. I dont know but thats how I see it.”
It appears to me you are making this submission a job to do or a test to pass – it is much more simple. Just as Jesus teaches, Love your husband as you would have him to love you. Even an unsaved husband can appreciate a wife who is always on his side. Being supportive is not instinctive but is self sustaining after it is practiced long enough. When we were first married my husband told me he wanted me to always be on his side and through it all I have been so. (When we were married we both were totally back-slidden but Praise Jesus now we serve Him.)
Your posts makes me want to ask, ‘why do you feel you are not a good wife?’ Are you not taking steps to correct this? Do you want to be a good wife? When I married my husband I really only had a vague idea what a good wife was but I knew it was a partnership and not a dictatorship.
Kindest regards,
Janice
Dear Janice,
I so do love my husband so very much, and I do my best with what God has given me to submit to him. Yes I wish I was a better wife, but the fact is that I am not. That’s why I need His grace daily, without it my heart is wicked and there is nothing good in me. My model for a good wife is Proverbs 31 and I Pet 3. So I have a good idea of what a good wife is.
Yes I understand that an unsaved husband appreciate a wife who is always on his side, I have seen this myself, thanks to the goodness of God.
Examples, (not necessarily my situations) I heard of an unsaved man who did not want his wife to be baptised, the wife submitted, but it was hard. Some unsaved husbands do not want their children to be taught the Word, its very hard for a wife to submit to this. Some unsaved husbands will put their children in daycare, public schools, (at the expense of their children’s well being), again a saved wife would find it hard to submit to this, though she will submit, because she trusts God, some unsaved husband have hardened hearts that they make it very difficult for the wife, surely women in these situations will struggle to be on their husbands sides. Does it mean they are not saved because they feel submission is more of a command than a privilege. Some unsaved husbands will have their children playing harmful games on TV, watching godless programmes on TV, going to clubs, parties, and some other harmful things. Some unsaved husbands cheats on their wives. Tell me, is it easy for the wife to be on the husband’s side? Again I think its easier to judge these women when you are not in their situation, but the good news is that God’s grace is sufficient for them, and no other person can ever comfort or understand such women in these situations, as much as we may all not like to believe it, its not easy to submit to a husband who is not saved. An unsaved man may prefer to spend his nights in a night club than at home with his wife. These women exist, and they are the women I feel for, where ever they may be. In fact I would like to have a ministry that encourages women who walk alone, God willing, my heart bleeds for them, these women may find it hard to submit, but it does not mean they are not saved.
Even John Bunyan wrote, “Indeed there are some wives in great slavery by reason of their ungodly husbands; and as such should be pitied, and prayed for; so they should be so much the more watchful and circumspect in all their ways”.
Now these women may find submitting more of a command than a privilege. But God gives them the grace, and He wont let them be tempted beyond what they can endure, as hard as it may be. Can you be on the same side with a husband who forces you to go to work and put your baby in daycare? I thank God for men like John Bunyan, who knew that these women existed, and he did his best to encourage them. These women may actually be more submissive than they know, but they are forever feeling discouraged because they have so much temptation in their way. I pity them and pray that they will be encouraged!
Dear Jean,
It was my error to start this conversation.
Excuse my ignorance,
Janice
Jean/Janice
FWIW
You are both dear sisters in Christ.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
This is the consolation of Christ in all situations, good, bad and ugly.
Lee,
Did you not agree that the word slave can be used in place of bondservant and that it is the persons heart attitude that matters? (the actual term in the bible can be used as both as long as you understand the meaning of slave as used in that time?) If so, then couldnt you say that Nolan can call refer to himself as such without being lost? Are you guilty of an ad hom yourself by judging those that listen to Lordship teaching?
You are just assuming that he never refers to himself any other way or that he uses that term in a wrong way. Couldnt you also say that in scripture the disciples did as Jesus commanded in Matthew ….therefore we can use that term? A command doesnt change based on the response to it. A command is issued and the response is left up to the individual. I can ask a question and not get an answer but it doesnt change the fact that I asked a question…..but I do believe that it is a joy for a child of God to obey Him..it shouldnt be a struggle becasue He says His burden is not heavy…but as Jean said it is a struggle at times because we are sinful and deal with sinful people…
1 kings 8:39
Lee,
Matt 23:3-4
“Therefore whatever they tell to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move one of them with their fingers.
I thought about what you wrote Lee, it is a burden for many and not a privilege. We heap commands on ourselves to where we show ourselves to others that we are spiritual and obedient to God. Church has played a vital role in how we view commands and obedience. The heap on us “commands” to fill there own fleshly desires. “One fallen head teaching another.” (Paraphrasing what Ravenhill said about seminaries and teachers.) they strain the gnat and swallow a camel.
In saying that I, we are commanded many things, but wouldn’t be out of privilege because of what Christ has done for us?
Anyways good stuff once again Lee..God has gifted you with much insight.
blessings
Mike
Thank you Lee for the encouragement.
Janice, the Lord bless
You got it Mike.
Most who claim the command of church attendance will go home after it to watch football or some other such thing, thereby showing where their heart really is…..blind guides is all I say….
or read a book or get on facebook or go out to eat or clean house or a million other things….is it ok to live after church service? You are describing the pharisees in the building but there are true believers there that are not there for show, nor are they there for any other reason than sing praises to the Lord along with other believers……to be encouraged by others, to serve inthe body…are there not great reasons to go to the gathering as described in scripture? (and no, we do not watch football after church service LOL so I am not taking up for the football crowd, mike can attest to that:)
For Melissa (the Mrs) from the Fundamentals:
Why save the Lord’s Day?
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/fundamentally/fund4/fundD14.html
Here is a decent quote from it that should answer your question.
“There are those who say, “If the Sabbath was made for man, why may he not do as he pleases with it?” Because it was made for man’s liberty, not for man’s license, and the highest liberty is always found in conformity to law. So long as my doings affect no one else’s liberty, I may do as I choose, but the moment I cross some one else’s rights, I am not free to do as I choose. I am limited by the higher law of brotherly love. If you think you are at liberty to travel on the Lord’s Day or attend a ball-game or concert on that day, you are not conforming to the law of brotherly love in that you force your fellow man to work for you on the day that you enjoy your freedom. But you reply, “Those people who toil on the Lord’s Day receive extra pay.” Extra pay! My friend, there is not gold enough in the bosom of the eternal hills to compensate a single toiler for his loss of the day of rest. EVERY MAN HAS A RIGHT TO HIS MANHOOD, AND NO MONEY COMPENSATION CAN REPLACE THE LOSS OF MANHOOD. “But the train of cars that I board on the Sabbath would run anyway, and I might as well go on it.” My friend, how does that cancel your share of the moral responsibility for having forced your brother man to violate the law of the Sabbath?”
Thanks for the link Lee,
will give it a read and get back with you….
Melissa
Its not so much what others do after church service on Sunday…but what was done the night before?
Personally football is a waste of anyone’s time in my humble opinion! LOL
ok…still looking………….
Another of the better quotes from the article.
“The very purpose of the Sabbath was to give God’s children one whole day free from the suggestions and contaminations of a wicked world.”
I am looking at various teachings on this subject…my confusion with you is that you say things about people quoting others yet you do it alot….you say things about people calling Christmaster yet the link you gave me is written by one who said that very thing ……..
and because it celebrates our relation to our divine Master;
Here is where I am so far…I am not dispensational but could be labeled progessive dispensational due to teaching but still searching these teachings in light of scripture…I have always believed that the Sabbath was fullfilled by Christ as stated in scripture…I do not know of this man you quote but I see that Spurgeon adn Pink as well as someone I trust, living now, held this view…I am reading things they have written and searching the scriptures….I am well aware of Darby and Finney and some of the others that spread this teaching into the church and I am aware of how many modern teachers hold to a form of this…do you? (the dispenstional view is what I am refering to….)
ugh…in case that sounds confusing….spurgeon and pink hold to the sabbath as still in force….darby and finney and others in that line hold to the dispensational teaching, as well as most cults…..
The Sabbath in regards to its requirement for one day per week of absence of work except for works of mercy, is and always has been in effect for all of mankind. IE even in the atheist Russian prison camps, believe it or not, they gave the people there one day off of work per week, Sunday of course. Hence a ‘command’ being for all of mankind. However, for the child of God, that day is not to be characterized by the negative in what is missing, but rather by the positive in what it is opened up for. For these the day is characterized by fullness of worship of the most High God, which is the privilege of the children of God alone.
Many think that going to church fulfills that, but truth be told it is a very far cry from that. It is meant to be the Christian’s weekly ‘date’ with the Lord, in which deep personal and private communion is possible with all other distractions removed. It can include fellowship with likeminded brethren, seeking the same Lord but their absence does not negate the date. Imagine going on a date with your husband, and instead of paying attention to you, he only slept on the couch, or watched TV, or read a novel, or some other such thing, some date huh? On a date you want to pay attention to the one you are dating and them alone. The Lord’s day has been freed up from work by a command to the world so that it can be your date with Him. Today however, far from taking advantage of the privilege, the world has by and large even ignored the command, making it in an even worse case than atheist Russia.
I can see that I used to go to church to “keep holy the sabbath” when I was a catholic pharisee, (I didnt even know the scripture, “do not forsake the assembling..”) but after God saved me I honestly wanted to attend and be in fellowship with other believers, I love to go and worship and not in a way that I am fulfilling a duty or being religious, but out of a true deep desire to be with brothers and sisters and to come together and join our voices in praise…i can see where I have not kept sunday truly set apart though…i have by default spent most of the day in intentional praise and worship and my mind has been allowed to be stayed on Him….. but not intentionally…not because it is the sabbath day..everyday of my life is filled with Him and His word..with praising and prayer and teaching my children..so I never really thought about doing it more so on a certain day….I am going to pray about how that would look and what the Lord will have me change about that….
For a few pointers, here is how it began with me. (bear in mind I had no internet, didn’t know what a Puritan was or who Spurgeon was, had no instruction from anyone on the topic, just a conviction from Christ Himself)
First on the negative side
1) No TV on Sunday. (closing one of the doors of worldliness into my home)
2) Cash transactions of any kind went away on Sunday. (no causing anyone else to work, going out for Sunday brunch after church was to me the greatest of hypocrisies)
3) Only necessary menial chores on Sunday. (simple rest)
That facilitated the positive side
1) Much fewer distractions for prayer, Bible study, and meditation
2) It became an appointment that would not be missed, unless works of mercy were needed.
3) I would sometimes think the whole day on just one verse.
4) I learned who God is, not who I thought God was.
From there it grew such that what I learned in my close and quiet communion with Christ on the Lord’s Day was spread throughout the week as much as possible, and many of the things I did for ‘fun’, though clean, really weren’t all that fun anymore. I simply couldn’t wait to get away from the demands of the world back to those quiet times with Christ.
Another note: If you choose to go this route, your LS beliefs will fall away, you will lose your church, you will be marginalized by those who you thought were friends. But you will KNOW Christ, and the tradeoff is well worth it!
Lee, I do not know all there is to know and there are many things I am learning daily…right now there are very few things that I have my fist tightly shut around…the gospel is one of those things….my salvation is another…I know that I KNOW Christ and I KNOW that He knows me…you will be calling Him a liar if you continue to say that what He has testified to me is not true….maybe you should take the time to really pray about your problem with me in that area…and I do not mean that in a smart mouth way but very seriously…I am not going to be just like you or just like people that are being like you….John was different from Peter…Christ binds us….as for what you have written: I do not know what you call my LS beliefs…I know that I am in complete agreement that the things written about LS on another blog are not true and right….that is not what I think Lordship means at all….Jesus is Lord and savior…that is what I believe….
.I am already marginalized by those that I thought were my friends..including,and most of all,some of my “christian friends”….I lost my church (actually a couple of them) but was given the one I am
in right now…The Lord has removed my desire for alot of
what would be considered “worldliness” , what
my consciene,through the power of Holy Spirit conviction,
has convicted me of not what other people believe to be wrong…(you sound as if you would be suprised at my life if you really knew what it consisted of)
we were most definetly opposite where you started on Sundays, I started in small bits of time through the week, not set aside on a certain day… The Lord dealt with me during my quiet time that I would
fit in each day and my time with Him grew from there… I already have close communion with Christ in my daily life….that is why I never saw a reason to make Sunday any different…please be specific at what you think should change in my belief system, they may not even be what you think…i am BEING sanctified and grown….i am by no means there yet…
Melissa
Not only do I not want you to be just like me, but I am absolutely positive there is no one else in the world just like me, there couldn’t be, I don’t believe the world could stand it….
Now…
You wrote:
“Jesus is Lord and savior…that is what I believe….”
I realize it is just a typo, but the typo typifies LS beliefs, Lord is ALWAYS capitalized, but as in the case above, Saviour often times is not. To the LS advocate Lordship is very important, but Christ’s Saviourship gets relegated to second class.
Now let’s take a look at the cornerstone verses of the Lordship salvation doctrine.
Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Lordship Salvationists are precisely the ones who say Lord, Lord, yet confuse what they are doing with being the will of the Father. It will be LS types who receive the “I never KNEW you”. Why, because the knowing is not for those who confess Christ as Lord, nor even submit to Him as Lord, but for those to whom Christ is Husband and have had that most intimate of fellowship with Him. When Adam KNEW his wife Eve, it signifies that most intimate of communion between husband and wife, likewise when Christ says ‘I never KNEW you’, it means that one may have gotten everywhere in religion EXCEPT for that most intimate of communion with Christ alone. This is what LS avoids like the plague….they will take doctrines, fellowship, etc. etc, as long as it doesn’t involve getting too close to the person of Christ, especially where He makes them uncomfortable. But it is the things considered UNCOMFORTABLE whereby your communion with Christ is truly tested.
Sooner or later EVERY tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord Php 2:11, yet these confessions leave one short of salvation. It is only His bride who will take Christ as her Husband.
Hos 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi [my Husband]; and shalt call me no more Baali [my Lord].
This is the day of salvation for the Jew, and the day of salvation for the Gentile. No man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Ghost, yet this moving of the Holy Ghost is not the definition of salvation, but rather a mere enlightening as clarified in Heb 6:4-6. A person who will take Christ as Lord must at least be enlightened by the Holy Ghost, but those and those only who receive Christ as Husband have been confirmed as His bride. It is these and these alone who KNOW Christ and are KNOWN by Christ.
At first I laughed out loud in agreement to your statement about the world not being able to handle another you..then the question: what do you think is so different from you and other believers?
As for LS teaching…I do not even understand it to be what you say it is so you cannot judge me on what YOU say I believe…you must judge me on WHAT it is that I believe..
That is why I asked you a very clear and straightforward question: what belief do I have that needs to be changed?
It is much easier to argue a position and generalize beliefs and put them off on everyone that is even remotely associated with a group but to get to the individual and hear what it is they believe and speak ONLY to that is much more difficult because it could prove that what you assumed is just not true. Some people totally agree with you on the issue of not going to church but does that mean they agree for the same reason? Just as you quote and link to men that are very different from one another, not even agreeing on the doctrine of dispensationalism, people can quote and read men that have differing opinions and you cant judge the reader based only on what they are reading.
I am not a postion…I am a child of God, I am of the Elect, I am the Bride of Christ…and you would do well not to generalize people. (that is one fruit that I see in you and another that agrees with you, the high tendency to categorize and generalize)
you said
yet confuse what they are doing with being the will of the Father.
Are you saying that I do this?
I believe and understand that the emphasis is placed on what one is doing by 1 John …and by Jesus saying things about loving Him and having and keeping His commandments John 14:15-22…there are many places where Jesus speaks like this…I do not dare say that LS people (whoever you think that to be) do not take this and twist it, very important to realize that I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR ANYONE BUT ME…
you said:
This is what LS avoids like the plague….they will take doctrines, fellowship, etc. etc, as long as it doesn’t involve getting too close to the person of Christ, especially where He makes them uncomfortable. But it is the things considered UNCOMFORTABLE whereby your communion with Christ is truly tested.
Are you saying I do this?
DO you really believe that if one loves fellowship and doctrine etc…that it means they do not love Christ and commune with Him? That they do not know Him and He doesnt know them BECAUSE they also love fellowshipping with others and they love doctrine? Teh word of God says you will be known by your love for the brethren and Paul emphasised the doctrine being guarded…
This is my problem, you use things as a sign of a true believer/false believer that scripture does not use.
You have spoken to what you say LS people believe but I am talking about me because you (and another) say I am lost and that I need to lose beliefs….
I KNOW I believe some things that are not right and the Lord has shown me the truth in many areas, many ,many areas….do you know that there are some things that you believe that are wrong?
Melissa
You wrote:
“by Jesus saying things about loving Him and having and keeping His commandments John 14:15-22″
Which seems to be a favorite of you and your husband, yet when confronted with the fourth commandment, you brush it off with:
“or read a book or get on facebook or go out to eat or clean house or a million other things….is it ok to live after church service?”
You very plainly don’t keep that commandment.
You wrote:
“I can see that I used to go to church to “keep holy the sabbath” when I was a catholic pharisee, (I didnt even know the scripture, “do not forsake the assembling..”) but after God saved me I honestly wanted to attend and be in fellowship with other believers, I love to go and worship and not in a way that I am fulfilling a duty or being religious, but out of a true deep desire to be with brothers and sisters and to come together and join our voices in praise”
Going to church does not keep holy the sabbath, fellowshipping with believers does not keep holy the sabbath, joining your voice in praise does not keep holy the sabbath. These are all man-centered, and others may get the same joy you experience at church when they go to a rock concert with buddies.
What is missing from your keeping the Lord’s Day is fellowship with Christ.
you said:
Going to church does not keep holy the sabbath, fellowshipping with believers does not keep holy the sabbath, joining your voice in praise does not keep holy the sabbath. These are all man-centered, and others may get the same joy you experience at church when they go to a rock concert with buddies.
I never said it did and said I did not go to church after salvation to keep it holy but for the reasons listed. But since you brought it up, when I lift my voice in praise and worship it is not man centered…my heart is focused onteh Lord and its Him that I sing to. When I fellowship with other believers I am doing as told in scripture so that is not man centered…Its not exactly WHAT I am doing but WHY I am doing…you and I can both be posting on this blog but one of us be wrong: if our reasons are wrong then we are wrong……
When confronted by the fourth commandment I most certainly did not brush it off..let me simplify for you: at one time I took the fourth commandment and used it like a pharisee by going to church and calling it holy…after salvation I continued going to church but for a new, different reason.
That reason was NOT because I thought I was keeping the sabbath holy….after salvation I had a whole lot of things to learn and for better or worse keeping a day holy was not learned at the get go (again, I am STILL learning)…please go back and read my post to you: I said that I didnt even think about the fourth commandment, not that i thought I was keeping it holy by going to church, but that I went to church bc I wanted to. I said I would pray about how it and seek the Lord as to how it would work out in my life.
Is this a deliberate misunderstanding of what I have written as to not answer my last post?
As far as the scripture verse I quoted I dont know about it being a favorite of mine. I think my favorite is Eph.2:8-9,
you accused me of thinking the will of the Father is based on what I do and I was just pointing out what Jesus said…I also stated 1 John…again, not a favorite but an applicable one…are you going to answer what I have asked?:::::
Are you saying that I do this?
DO you really believe that if one loves fellowship and doctrine etc…that it means they do not love Christ and commune with Him? That they do not know Him and He doesnt know them BECAUSE they also love fellowshipping with others and they love doctrine?
….do you know that there are some things that you believe that are wrong?
Melissa
To all your questions of: Are you saying that I do this?
My answers are yes.
Who did Noah fellowship with? How about Lot?
Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Any faith that survives not a dungeon is no faith from God. What He gives, He sustains, whether there are believers to gather with or not.
Even the heathen recognize that the apocalypse is nigh. To claim that there is a church full of people today to fellowship with is to deny the prophesy of old.
you said
Any faith that survives not a dungeon is no faith from God. What He gives, He sustains, whether there are believers to gather with or not.
I agree and have never said otherwise……..but we were given the privilege of fellowship and assembling….
even if there are only 5 other believers in that building on Sunday moring, Christ is there…The gospel is the power unto salvation and as long as that is being preached from that pulpit then God is able to save those that are there…I am not called to pull up the tares from among the wheat..I am called to pray and minister and proclaim the gospel EVERYWHERE that I go…….
So just to be very clear: because i am in fellowship in a church body then I am apostate or unsaved and do not know Christ? I do not see the need to go as far as you go with others salvation when they are professing Christians and their lives are in line with scripture……I know we judge things so I dont need a lecture on that….
Had I said that I needed fellowship above communion with Christ then you could be justified in your answer…I have fellowship in addition TO not in place OF..I do not see where my being in a churchbuilding is a sign that I am lost…Scripture says we receive Christ as He is…you accuse some of emphasizing Lord but you emphasize Husband…He is all: Savior, Bridegroom,Lord, Master, Teacher, Son of God, The Word made Flesh, I AM, the true vine, the gate of the sheep, King of Kings, Lord of Lords Messiah and on and on…. Heb 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways in these last days has spoken to us in His Son…..we have been in the last days since the coming of Christ…what I am asking you is WHERE do you see that we are called out of the institution of the church and WHY do you say that now is the time since we have been in the last days since Christs coming…if you could be plain in your explaining then understanding may come easier.
Why do you call Babylon the church? How do you pick what Old Testament scripture is speaking directly to us in our situation? Do you not see God speaking to Israel as being seperate in some aspects than Him speaking to His New Testament Church?
Let’s suppose there are five believers in your church, and for round numbers let’s say there are 100 people total in it.
95 in your church that are unsaved, what is a Christian to do? The 95 will not leave, so to exercise the church discipline you prefer, the five are to leave, turning the 95 over to Satan as 1 Cor 5 states. We have said, “Adios, enjoy your building and the fellowship amongst yourselves, but we are going to meet the King.”
Next
Let’s suppose of the 100 in your church, you believe there are 95 that are saved. That puts you in the same category as the cults in what everyone including even your church recognizes as an apostate time, “Every other church is apostate, but OURS is full of saints.”
You said:
“So just to be very clear: because i am in fellowship in a church body then I am apostate or unsaved and do not know Christ?”
To be clear, you have it in the reverse order. Because you do not know Christ therefore you must fellowship in a body of unbelief.
If you understood the signs of the times, you would know what Babylon is.
Here are a couple Larkin charts that may give clarity.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/eschatology/Larkin_SCOC/The_Church.pdf
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/eschatology/Larkin_SCOC/Messages_to_Churches_vs_History.pdf
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/eschatology/Larkin_SCOC/Kingdom_of_God-Heaven-Church.pdf
I am going to read these links but let me just ask right off the top of my head, not usually a good thing but here it goes: Let’s suppose of the 100 in your church, you believe there are 95 that are saved. That puts you in the same category as the cults in what everyone including even your church recognizes as an apostate time, “Every other church is apostate, but OURS is full of saints
Does that not refer to you and those that believe that only the saints are outside of the church? The brethren thought the same thing…again, I know not everyone in my church is saved…church discipline is specified very clearly and those caught in open sin are disciplined…I dont need to overstep scripture…..
If you understood the signs of the times, you would know what Babylon is.
so anyone saved would know this?
you do not know Christ therefore you must fellowship in a body of unbelief.
I will leave this be for now because I do not want to continue to heap condemnation upon your head for saying I am not redeemed with the blood of Christ, I am positive that my Husband/Father/Lord/Savior does not glory in you doing this…
FYI
The links aren’t reading, they are pictoral representations.
BTW
I don’t have a church, Christ has a church, but it’s invisible…..
you do realize that church is referred to in scripture in two ways and one of those ways is the visible church…when I say my church or your church I would assume you know that to mean the one we would attend…as far as I see right now Christ has a church and see is visible as well…she was instituted in the scriptures…
I got your pictures and I am checking further sources…..
If you understood the signs of the times, you would know what Babylon is.
since I dont could you enlighten me?
A couple more tidbits for you.
If you believe the Bible to be the literal word of God, we are approximately 6015 years since creation, give or take 25 years or so based on the lineages.
The seventh thousand of years will be the millenial reign of Christ on earth. Because of the goodness and patience of the Lord, we appear to be in overtime as He gathers in the last few kernals prior to the rapture of the saints.
The apostasy in Jerusalem when Christ came the first time was nearly total with nary a respected religious leader proclaiming the truth in the synagogue, we can expect the same at His second coming. As evidenced above, it is near!
Lee
If you understood the signs of the times, you would know
what Babylon is.
since I dont could you enlighten me?
Mystery Babylon in the making.
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches.html
I have a question for you while I am looking into the things you have presented….do you think a person that does not accept the end time prophecy as put forth by you (Larkin, Darby whoever) is not truly saved?
Though extremely rare in these last days, there is a possibility that some of you may still have a sound visible church to commune with, for which you should be truly grateful;
This is on your website so do you really think there are churches out there that are sound?
Question:
“I have a question for you while I am looking into the things you have presented….do you think a person that does not accept the end time prophecy as put forth by you (Larkin, Darby whoever) is not truly saved?”
Answer:
They could be saved, but they are going to have a whole lot of trouble figuring out what is going on. Very little with regards to the endtimes will make sense to them. Conversely, there are those who have a reasonable understanding of what is happening yet still don’t know Christ. This is the time of deception, and the deception is only to grow….
“…do you really think there are churches out there that are sound?”
I have visited one on the other side of the country, but the 90+ year old pastor has since died. I also know of a couple house churches where there is sound fellowship. So yes there is the possibility, but as we get nearer to the coming of Christ (whatever that actual date may be), the possibility/probability is approaching zero.
If one has graduated from seminary (I prefer cemetary), it is near impossible for them to be a Christian. Yet these are the people who are charged with leading congregations. The universalist/unitarians overran the seminaries in the 1920′s. That unbelief has been fostered for a couple generations and voila, here we are.
One of the prominent signs of this is both of our countries being turned nearly entirely over to sodomy. This is a judgment of the Lord, meant to be stuffed in the face of all who profess to be Christian to humble us. It is not a rallying cry to go out and preach against sodomy, but a cry to preach against that which professes to be the church. Yet churches everywhere will band together to preach against sodomy when the FULL cause of the degradation of society to that point rests with that which professes to be the church. When the Lord turns entire countries (let alone the entire world) over to sodomy, you can well know that that which passes for the visible church is not His. The more famous and well received they are by the visible church (hence Macarthur, Lawson etc) the less likely they are to be Christ’s.
Hi Lee,
First i want to thank you for the conversation and information…I really wanted to know where you were coming from before just assuming anything about you…
and God totally used this conversation to remind me that He has given me a day to be with Him and I have not done with what I should..with that said, I know that scripture tells us to examine ourselves as to whether we are in the faith (2Cor) and scripture tells us how to be sure that we are His, that we are not deceived by ourselves or by Satan…I see in scripture that we will know by: our love for God: Luke 10:27, Rom 8:7, we are trusting on Christ as our Lord and Savior Rom 10:9, too many to list , we are living a life of repentance 2 Cor 7:10…genuine humility (including accepting correction in where we are wrong) matt5: 1-12, we are in continuous prayer, Luke 18:1, Eph 6:18, 1Tim 2:1-4, we have selfless love 1 John 2:9, 3:14, 4:7, we hunger for the Word of God 1 Peter2: 1-3, and we have a transformed life, 2 Cor 5:17. I am sure I could go on and on but nowhere in scripture have I seen the requirements you put forth: trust never failing (remember Peter), saying you are 100% ungodly after being filled with the Holy Spirit (psalm 32:6 is only one of the many passages that seperate the godly from the ungodly), refering to Christ as husband in your speech when He is called Lord many times more as well as many other names, leaving the visible church (you do know this is a mans interpretation of end time prophecy) not attending seminary, God saves Lee, not what school you go to, many pastors are saved after becoming a pastor, that the Lords business. The word says you will know them by their fruits and these are the ways that I judge…by scripture and what its says…if the fruit of your ministry is bitter and sour and having disdain for the lost and judging believers on things such as what they are watching on television (because that could be a sin they are in) then that is not godly, good fruit…Spurgeon had a mouthful to say on the people in the brethren movement not having love and I would tend to agree with him somewhat….as for your comment about Lawson and Macarthur being famous and well received I can assure you they are not…Joel Osteen, Rick Warren and the like are more in line with what you are saying…what you call famous and well received is relative to the other men in ministry…
but again, I do not need to defend either of these men, the Word of the Lord will judge them. Nowhere does it say in scripture that you are to be hated by Christians to be truly saved…I do not claim to know the end time events, I have an idea of what things are looking like but I do not focus my entirety on the prophecy of the end times…I do not put that above Christ and His redeeming work…I do not boast in end times but in the cross… just be very sure that you have the right interpretation of end time events since you are telling others how to live their life based on it…and anyone basing their decisions on your words should be sure they agree with your reasons..it needs to be the Lord leading them and not man…..Thanks for the time you have given me…. In His name and Love…..Melissa
Just do me one favour. Remember this conversation…. that it be not in vain.
I will do that…and you do likewise….and believe me it wasnt in vain and the Lord has already used it in a few ways….Thanks Lee
http://www.cfbcmobile.org/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=114&sec_id=377&nc=1257445044133
“The name of this Corporation is Christ Fellowship Baptist Church. It is a Alabama nonprofit religious Corporation with its principal offices in Mobile, Alabama.”
Compare this to:
http://ecclesia.org/truth/501-church.html
1. “A corporation is a creature of the state. It is presumed to be incorporated for the benefit of the public. It receives certain special privileges and franchises and holds them subject to the laws of the state and the limitation of its charter. Its powers are limited by law. It can make no contract not authorized by its charter. Its rights to act as a corporation are only preserved to it so long as it obeys the laws of its creation. There is a reserved right in the legislature to investigate its contracts and ascertain if it has exceeded its powers” (Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43).
3. “A corporation derives its existence and all of its powers from the State and, therefore, has only such powers as the State has conferred upon it. Power is used here to mean the legal capacity to execute and fulfill the objects and purposes for which the corporation was created, and the source of this power is the charter and the statute under which the corporation was organized.” Len Young Smith and G. Gale Roberson, Smith and Roberson’s Business Law, West Publishing Company, 1966, page 796.
“Note: A corporation is created by, and derives its existence from, the State. In contrast, the church is created by, a creature of, derives its existence from, subject to, and obeys the Law of, Jesus Christ. “
With that I will close the thread…..
Re-opened for more some more info.
http://hushmoney.org/incorporate-facts.htm
Rome persecuted the Christians not for Who they worshipped. Rome had hundreds of deities, and they could care less who or what you worshipped, as long as you were “licit” (licensed). The church was persecuted not because they worshipped Jesus Christ, but because of the manner in which they functioned — an ecclesia. The church was declared to be “illicit,” and held in a state of “civil disobedience,” because of their refusal to incorporate. Why did the church refuse incorporation? Largely because they knew that it would destroy their testimony that Jesus Christ is “Lord” and “Sovereign.”
Under Roman civil law, “Caesar is sovereign over the corporation,” and “the corporation is a creature of the State.” The early church willingly suffered for its refusal to accept “State privileges and benefits.”
Did Bunyan incorporate? No.
Did Watson incorporate? No.
Did Whitefield incorporate? No.
On the other hand,
Did the RC church incorporate? Yes.
Did Macarthur incorporate? Yes.
Did Piper incorporate? Yes.
Did Lawson incorporate? Yes.
It’s just lipstick on the harlot….
Why is it that churches say that the state can not infringe on their rights, base on being a church. But then use the tax-exempt status given by the government?
It helps with the business of the corporation….
its ridiculous!