I stumbled across a person who goes by the name of Castingthelight on another blog who has some questions he would like to ask. This thread will be dedicated to the discussion.
Casting, feel free to introduce yourself.
I stumbled across a person who goes by the name of Castingthelight on another blog who has some questions he would like to ask. This thread will be dedicated to the discussion.
Casting, feel free to introduce yourself.
Thanks for setting up the thread. It is getting a lil late so I will post sometime tomorrow. But before I go I would like to ask one thing . By reading your web page I see that you give creedence to the lone wolf christian. I suspect by that that you do not attend a local congregation?
Introductions first, who am I speaking with?
I am a Wretched sinner saved by Gods amazing grace.
I am a husband and father of 4.(23,19,11,7)
I am reformed in my theology.
I am intrigued by the many different skews or doctrines not only within the reformed circles but also other professing evangelicals. Although I really try not to use the term evangelical much. I rather think it is much wiser to use the word orthodox instead. Since it appears that evangelical has been hijacked by wolves masquerading as sheep. NOw I think that is enough of an introduction.
Now after the question I proposed at the top, I would like you to answer the questions from Jeans blog that was not answered over there. I am not wanting to get into a gun fight.
You have a blog and a website and I think as most probably you do, that you are responsible for any material that you post as well as any teaching that you adhere to or deem neccessary to advance.
Below is the questions I posed to you on Jeans blog. Again, I am really just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Now to be fair to you I am going to ask questions about some of the things you have posted on your website that I find that I do not agree with. I will only have time to post 1 time a day. If I or you become a lil to snarky then it will not become very edifying for either you or myself and I will stop.
Explain the in dwelling of wisdom and how that affirms salvation in old testament saints.
So, I say yes solomon was saved you say? explain
I say Solomon was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but that the Holy Spirit rested upon him to be taken away at God’s discretion.
Interested in your response to this wisdom indwelling.
Are you saying that just having knowledge of God and his laws was enough for Solomon and all old testament saints for salvation?
What is widom?
For those who have not witnessed the prior conversation, your first statement is in response to this. You asked, “Was Solomon indwelt by the Holy Spirit?” I responded, “Yes, in the form of wisdom.”
Nowhere did I say that it is the indwelling of wisdom that affirms salvation in old testament saints, yet this is a conclusion that you seem to have jumped to. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Solomon was merely manifest in wisdom. Yet on the other hand we see in Ex 28:3 a group of people to whom the Lord refers as ‘all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom’, and likewise for Bezaleel in Ex 31:2-3, 36:1-2, and Joshua in Deut 34:9. For this group, since the Lord himself was full of the spirit of wisdom (Isa 11:2), being filled with the spirit of wisdom by the Lord is His claim of ownership of them and therefore they are His.
Solomon however has a different claim of ownership to him, in 2 Sam 7:14-15, 1 Chr 17:11-13, clearly stated as “I will be his father, and he shall be my son”. His wisdom is merely a manifestation of that fact.
Like being Reformed in theology is not enough for salvation in the NT so having a knowledge of God in the OT is not enough for salvation. The Lord must own you has His own.
Your testimony above is Christless, there is no mention of Him. You are Reformed, sure, great, whatever, but your testimony is Christless. I don’t care what theology you have, or who you have learned from, I want to know this: Do you know Christ? Does He know you? Does He claim you as His own? Does the Spirit itself bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? Or are you the wolf you are seeking to find?
Now, I am asking for your full name. The reason this is important is that it is the inquisitioner and the executioner who prefer to wear the hood. Had there not been prior reason to question your sincerity I wouldn’t be so adamant on this particular issue, but I need to make an exception in this case. If you are indeed here in good faith you will not hesitate further in giving me your full name.
Lee
My name is Nolan Flowers
You wanted an introduction and not a testimony. I will be happy to give you my testimony. I only mentioned Reformed to let you know up front where I am coming from theologicaly and doctrinally. Now most certainly I Know that religion doesn’t save you. It is faith and trust in Christ alone and the atonement for MY SINS he accomplished on the cross.
Now as for the sincerity issue you have with me, that is all on you.
For those who do not know our prior conversations on Jeans blog,
I asked you if you had a website or a blog so that we could discuss some other issues that did not relate to the subject on Jeans blog. You did not answer.
I asked you if your initials were l.s. you did not respond
You then reasoned in your mind that I was Phil Johnson or Frank Turk.
Which by the way is my kinda guys.
Now if you remember you didn’t give me your name,blog or website.
Someone else that posted on Jeans blog that knew you gave it me.
Now up to that point you had refused to give the info to me.
But, maybe you were going to do so later on, I do not know. Maybe that person thought that you may not. As for me I figured you were just trying to play a cat and mouse game until you figured out who I was or was not.
Now all that exchange was on Jeans blog but she has since deleted all those posts. Probably for the best.
Now this executioner and inquisitioner business with the hood and all might be a lil over the top.
I kinda look at it as Proverbs 27:17– Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.
I would like to say again,
Now I can not judge your heart and motives. Nor can you judge mine.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick, who can understand it? 10 I the Lord search the heart I test the mind, even to give each man according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds.
I am not judging your heart and motives. I do not know you and you do not know me. You say you are a christian, fine enough.
We can only go by how we respond to one another and the content there of when lined up with scripture. (And even having the”right answers” doesnt prove regeneration but on the other hand, speaking heresy proves non-regeneration. )
Now for the 3rd or 4th time (starting to lose count) do you attend a local congregation of believers in any capacity? if so explain why or why not.
TESTIMONY:
The first time I heard the gospel message was at ninteen years old from a man I worked for. My life was in a shambles. I had one child, one marriage and one divorce and a live in pregnant girlfriend. I was into drugs and living for myself. After the gospel message was presented, on the car ride home I said a “sinners prayer”. My life never changed, not my heart, not my desires and certainly not my guilt. In fact it even got worse. Now if you had asked me at anytime frorm then on I would have told you I was a christian. Never set foot in a church, never read the word, never prayed, just that one time. Fast forward 12 years, my girlfriend and I married, had another child and moved to a new town. The local pastor of the First Baptist church came knocking. After a couple of meetings at my home I again said a prayer believing that Jesus was God and He died for my sins. Started attending that church somewhat regularly. I began to simply begin going through the motions of a would be christian. It lasted about two years. Again, I had no hunger for the word or for pursuing righteousness much less a love for Christ. I just wanted to stay out of hell. I didnt want to serve my risen savior, I just wanted him to serve me. I was EXTREMELY self centered.
We dropped out of church and went back to living like the world. Although this time, without the drugs. A few years and another child later my wife was truly saved. She began to attend a local church without me. Then one night as I was channel surfing I came across a man who presented the gospel. He began with the law, the part I had never heard. You know, have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? You know the rest. At that time I knew I was lost. I had never really understood what sin was and how I had sinned against a holy God. Not just sinning against another man . And that Christ had really and truly died for my sins and rescued me from death and brought me into life. I knew what it was like to be dead in my sins and a slave to sin. After that happened I started attending church with my wife and came under a strong conviction of my sinfulness and my need for a savior. Sometime during this period my life changed and I repented and put my trust and faith in Christ. I have a love for the Christ that saved me and desire His word and desire to share my faith with others. I dont know the exact time or day but I do know that NOW i am a wretched sinner saved by Gods amazing grace through the power of the blood of His son Jesus and His spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child. Do you mind introducing yourself with your testimony?
noticed you do not have open comments. That they have to be first approved. Why?
First off, with regards to your request for my website. Someone with your router IP address accessed it via an e-mail inbox, well before you requested it.
The things the person looked at, were the things that would promote the exact questions you have asked. The problem is that the questions you asked were answered in the pages looked at. For those questions to be important enough to ask first, only gives evidence of a man whose religion is STILL bound up in forms.
This page answers your question about whether we attend a local congregation.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/about/about.html
These pages answer your questions about why we don’t.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/invisibly/invisibly.html
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/invisibly/The_Lone_Ranger_Christian.html
Each page of which someone with your router IP address has already viewed. Knowing the answer beforehand and then asking the question feigning ignorance of the matter is not becoming of one who makes a profession of Christ.
Then you made up an excuse of how you may have seen the site thru a link on the other blog’s front page. The first time you did that was after making the statement.
Had you not written with a slither and been forthright stating that you had already visited my site and had a few questions, or even if you wanted to go right to the throat, I would have dealt with you straightforwardly.
As it is now, it is not possible to trust you, and that is why your comments first have to be approved.
If you would like to put the quality of your repentance to the test by full disclosure in the matter, we may be able to continue, otherwise there is no need to go further.
If you are interested, this is the church we belong to.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/fundamentally/fund3/Fundc23.html
I never told you that I did not visit your blog and website. As to how I got there, I got there. I could not say that I had visited YOUR site as your SITE does not refer to you as lookup. So I asked questions of look up to dtermine if it was the same person. Look up did not respond to the questions until after asking if I was Phil Johnson or Frank Turk. I wondered why you thought I was either unless you have been incognito before. Not answering and not linking yourself to who you are is suspicious. Has I known you were paranoid about your identity being disclosed I would not have asked you anything. You could have just said that you didnt want it revealed. I tried to get you to take me there to confim but someone else did that for you, remember?
If you remember I asked your name. I asked if you attended a church NOT knowing if you, lookup, was Lee from the site Jean links to. You refused to answer the questions for me to confirm that it was you but it was revealed anyway. As far as the questions, you stated you did not attend a local church but not that you werent looking for a church. As far as I knew you could have found one or started one since the page you refer was put up.
Feigning ignorance? you again are Judging my heart motive.
This is another example of what I said before. You have acccused me of being other people. You have accused me of ulterior motives. You have refused to be forthcoming in your answers. What is your heart revealing is the question. I am asking you sincere questions. I answered your questions. I told you who I am and gave you my testimony with pure motives and an honest heart. There is no trick, there is no comittee of people trying to catch you saying something wrong. I dont walk in that camp. I serve Jesus and Him alone. Search yourself.
I see you have chosen the route of defending your sin. What will your Lordship salvation advocates say?
When someone email’s someone a link, it comes with an introduction. The originator of that was Lyn.
Need I look further for a motive?
http://castingthelight.blogspot.com/
Don’t play games any more, you already knew who I was. You are just making it worse for yourself.
On the brighter side, at least we can probably agree that you are just as thrilled as I am that I don’t attend your church.
PS:
You see how you were caught in your lies? That’s wisdom in action, now get back to your pack.
Num 32:23 …be sure your sin will find you out.
lee
I did not receive an email. My wife received an email from Lynn.
You don’t Know the content of that email. So I wll tell you that Lynn told my wife that the guy posting on Jeans blog, going by the name lookup was lee from the invisible church website that also Jean had a link to on her blog.
Then I visited your website and blog. However nowhere on your website does it say that elsewhere in internet land that you go by the name or alias as lookup. So instead of beleiving someone who I have never met and never talked to, I was trying to get you to send me to your blog if Lookup was really Lee. Actually I in hindsight should have just asked you if your name was Lee and should have specifically asked you if the invisible church website belonged to you lookup.
I was, I suppose trying to honor your privacy by asking questions, because I WAS not sure you wanted anyone to know.
Now it seems that you have done to me the same thing you accuse me of.
you said—–Don’t play games any more, you already knew who I was. You are just making it worse for yourself.
I can assure you I am not playing any games. Again I was not going to take someone elses word, she could have been wrong?
you said—- On the brighter side, at least we can probably agree that you are just as thrilled as I am that I don’t attend your church.
Lee Rankel we would be honored to have you and your family at our church
you said—You see how you were caught in your lies? That’s wisdom in action, now get back to your pack.
I was not lieing to you about any of this, but it seems that I have caused you to be angry and stumble. I apologise for that. I really thought you just didn’t want your identity blown. Now that was a sin on my part by trying to judge your heart and intentions. That I confess to God.
Now as far as the blog I have, it was started as a forum for me to discuss the heresies that I have come in contact with that are off the beaten path of the mainstream heresies ( mormons, Open theism Jehovah’s Witness, masonry) I have encountered people who are involved in the yeweh movement and the christian identity movement. As you can see it has been pretty inactive.
Can we get on to discussing some of the things you posted on your website?
But first would you be cordial enough to give your testimony and how you came to Christ?
FINALLY, some disclosure!
I have written my testimony down many times and each time I never seem to be able to do justice to it. The words always seem to fall so short of what actually happened.
I will give it one more try in an economy of words:
“I went into the fire without Christ, and came out of it with Him.”
Now, everything prior to this point is past, going forward, what would you like to discuss?
My family and I have by necessity been without church for several years now. Some might think that would be a bad thing, but truth be told, it has done us all a world of good to come to a full realization that we alone are responsible for the care of our own souls.
I thought Christ was the keeper of our souls.
Psalm 145:20–The Lord keeps all who love him,
Psalm 121:5–The Lord is your keeper,
How do you handle the text of:
Hebrews 13:17–Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief,for this would be unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deed, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
1 John 2:19 they went out from us but they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained with us but they went out so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Don’t get me wrong, if I knew of a congregation where the participation of a saved person would be welcomed, I would gladly participate,
this statement kinda sound like this parable:
Luke 18: 9-14 He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and viewed others with contempt: two men went up into the temple to pray, one a pharisee and the other a tax collector. The pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank you that I am not like other people, swindlers, unjust,adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away was even unwilling to life up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner I tell you, this man went tohis house justified rather than the other, fro everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, byt he who humbles himself will be exalted.
do we go to church to be welcomed by people or to worship God?
Before I address your questions, I want you to realize that nearly every verse and argument you used above was quoted to Luther as he left Rome. They are likewise quoted to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as they leave their church, along with practically every other cult that refers to the Bible.
These same verses are quoted by the Chinese government run church as believers leave their dead institutions for Christ as well.
Do you believe in the above cases there is good reason to leave?
You wrote:
“Quoting “My family and I have by necessity been without church for several years now. Some might think that would be a bad thing, but truth be told, it has done us all a world of good to come to a full realization that we alone are responsible for the care of our own souls.”
I thought Christ was the keeper of our souls.
Psalm 145:20–The Lord keeps all who love him,
Psalm 121:5–The Lord is your keeper,”
My response:
Surely you understand how the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man overlap. My wife doesn’t go to heaven because I do. Each one of us bears our own responsibility in these matters.
You wrote:
“How do you handle the text of:
Hebrews 13:17–Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief,for this would be unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deed, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near.”
I respond with:
Isa 3:12 ….O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. (This scattering is happening now by the way)
Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jer 23:1-2 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
You wrote:
“How do you handle the text of:
1 John 2:19 they went out from us but they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained with us but they went out so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ”
My response:
When you and others quote it as though you are the ‘us’, I am quite happy to not be of you. Just like Luther was quite happy to not be of Rome. Truly though the “us” in the verse is intended to be those who are Christ’s, and have you ever considered that perhaps it is you who have left “us”.
You wrote:
“Quoting “Don’t get me wrong, if I knew of a congregation where the participation of a saved person would be welcomed, I would gladly participate,
this statement kinda sound like this parable:
Luke 18: 9-14 He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and viewed others with contempt: two men went up into the temple to pray, one a pharisee and the other a tax collector. The pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank you that I am not like other people, swindlers, unjust,adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away was even unwilling to life up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner I tell you, this man went tohis house justified rather than the other, fro everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, byt he who humbles himself will be exalted. ”
My response:
I am not terribly concerned what it sounds like.
You wrote:
“do we go to church to be welcomed by people or to worship God?”
My response:
Neither.
Isa 3:12 ….O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
I want to quote the entire text of Isa 3:12—O my people their oppressors are children, and women rule over them O my people those who guide you lead you astray and confuse the direction of your paths
comment: Now the prophet adresses himself to the contemporary situation of his people . The are oppressed by juveniles and ruled by women. It is a situation which is so strongly reminiscent of conditions in our modern society. All this brings forth a cry from within the prophet’s
tormented heart.
Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Yes, one would do well to stay away from false teachers. But not every preacher in the visible church are apostate.
Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. (This scattering is happening now by the way)
Before I address your questions, I want you to realize that nearly every verse and argument you used above was quoted to Luther as he left Rome. They are likewise quoted to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as they leave their church, along with practically every other cult that refers to the Bible.
These same verses are quoted by the Chinese government run church as believers leave their dead institutions for Christ as well.
Do you believe in the above cases there is good reason to leave?
yes, The Jehovah’s witnesses do not beleive in the diety of the christ. heretical teaching
Mormonism has so many heresies it is ridiculous.
Catholocism does not beleive in justification by faith alone in Christ alone. heresey
Chinese church–now I do not know much about that government run entity. don’t live in China, But there are people who worship in underground church’s and often die for attending such meetings.
So, I think you may be saying that all church’s are apostate. This is kinda reminding me of other heretical views such as Mormons, Joseph Smith taught that his views of scripture were correct and everyone else was apostate.
Also the jehovah’s witness think the same that they are the only true church and again everyone else is apostate.
Also I have seen this also in the Christian Identity movement.
You seem to hold a view of some special revelation that only you and those that hold to this view can clearly see.
Kinda sounds lil like some form of the ancient heresey of gnosticism.
Now I guess that if we are to beleive what you are espousing then we should throw out 1Tim, 2Tim, and Titus. Since we have no need of church’s period anymore.
I know you do not go to a church building or anything like that, but do you meet with other professing believers in a gathering of any sort to study God’s word?
If I could be of any assistnce to you in finding a sound church I would like to help. Even in such a limited capacity I have many contacts that could help.
Interesting dialogue. Hope I am not interupting.
Casting said, “Do you mind introducing yourself with your testimony?”
Lee, why dont you share your testimony with your readers, as in how you came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, maybe for a future blog?
Casting, why are you so concerned that Lee does not attend a local church building on sundays? Just curious…
There are many saved persons who have or had to leave their congregations because there were not allowed to be christians in their churches. This is not normally an easy thing to do . To leave a self rightuous church who thinks they know God is a very hard thing for a christian to do. That individual will endure the hardest and most painful persecution ever, religious persecution! That individual will no one but Christ to turn to, and as the pharisees thought the Lord Jesus had a demon, a Christian who stands for the truth to leave a religious congregation would be called all sorts as well, by those who think they know God…
Jean
I have put down bits of my testimony before, but it truly does need a book. Over the next few months I may try to get to it, but I just can’t seem to do justice to it.
I didn’t come to Christ the easy way, I came one of the hardest ways there is. Similar to the way Luther came. Not with the help of the church, but in spite of church’s best efforts to prevent it. Looking back, it was the only preparation that would suffice for the ministry the Lord would have me do.
Casting only reminds me of those who worked so hard to prevent it…. Some day maybe he too will see…..
Jean & Lee
As I stated in my testimony a few posts ago we too had leave a few churches as well. The last in particular because their was a lack of church discipline. People who professed to know Christ were allowed to relish in their sin in open defiance of all church leadership. Disobeying what scripture says about church discipline. As we see in Matthew 18 Jesus says, “If your brother sins go and show him his fault in private. If he listens to you you have won your brother but if he does not listen to you take one or two more with you so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be to you as a gentile and tax collector “. Now, two things: 1. most churches, 90% do not practice this period. 2. If you are not in church there is no possibility for this to take place, both are horribly unscriptural.
If you read 1Cor 5 when there was immorality in the church which Paul was writing to, they were boasting about it. So Paul tells them that their boasting is not good (lack of church discipline for open sin of incest) Paul, in writing the letter condems them for not practicing church discipline. Paul tells them to remove that one from among their midst that calls himself a brother. This is a true mark of a true church. Mind you, there are few but they exist.
That is why it is necessary to be in an enviroment of believers in a corporate setting (not building) so you can be held accountable, building each other up and exhorting one another.
Also, Hebrews 10:25: not forsaking our own assembling together as is the habit of some but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near. What strikes me is that this is smack in front of the verses that talk about apostasy. What I am afraid of if someone adopts the attitude that they are not going to attend any corporate setting, for years, not just because of geographical location or in times of illness but a willfull turning away from the biblical mandate of verse 25 that they are in the danger of becoming a full fledged apostate. This is often how it starts. We can make excuse after excuse but disregarding verse 25 is disobeying scripture. I understand that sometimes there will be disagreements in the church and one may need to leave. There will be doctrinal issues but scripture says a true christian will have the love for the brethren (1John) and will want to be with other believers. If we disregard the fact that church is necessary then we have no need for 1 Tim, 2 Tim and Titus. We are commanded to be under the leadership of elders and deacons, scripture says so. I am concerned that having a website and a blog that is encouraging struggling believers and giving them the notion that it is ok to never attend church is a false teaching. There is no such thing as a lone ranger christian. On the website there is reference to various apostles that were imprisoned as “lone ranger christians”. Therefore giving creedance to this erroneous teaching. They had no choice to be seperate. It was not willfull but by force. Paul speaks with longing to be back with the brethern as he was in prison.
Phillipians 1:8 as God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus Phillipians 4:1 therefore my beloved brethren whom I long to see.
That is why I ask if you are gathering with the brethern in any setting. If you are in a town that only has two churches and they are both scripturally apostate, that is almost understandable ,but again, why not still gather with believers in the form of a house church to be in line with scripture?
Lee:
Casting only reminds me of those who worked so hard to prevent it…. Some day maybe he too will see…..
Please explain this clearly. Who and how did they work so hard against you being converted?
Casting
I could write every argument in every post you write before you even write it. Once upon a time I made many of those same arguments, I was wrong.
We have been outside the visible church for many years and have done nothing but flourish in Christ. What you don’t seem to understand is how far the apostasy has stretched, how deep it goes, right to the very core of what claims to be biblical Christianity today. If biblical averages hold true, (Dan 7:10, Rev 5:11) approximately 1 in 100 in your church are saved, and if you are really generous, maybe it’s 3. How do you even find these people to fellowship with, when they have to be silenced to be allowed in? How many times have you been asked to leave a church, because they couldn’t even allow you to speak in it?
I have a special ministry for a special time, that required special training, not to be found in the schools of men. The Lord forbid it! I made myself available to Him to do what He will with me no matter what the cost. Great humiliation followed, but it was necessary to bring me to a point of usefulness in what He had planned to do with me. Would I trust Him in EVERYTHING, even including the losing of my wife first and then later my own children on account of Him. I did, and he gave them back, just like Isaac.
You want to talk special revelation. What kind of special revelation do you think can happen in 4-5 hours per day in Bible study, meditation and prayer for over a decade? It’s special alright. I would be months explaining it, but I cannot even bring myself to talk about me.
Your testimony shows you have wandered a bit which I can understand, but in every argument you have made you display that you have only traded your past sin for formality. What kind of dry husk is that?
You want to talk about church and seminary (truly it’s cemetery), go ahead and do it elsewhere. If you want to talk about Christ with those who come here you are welcome to join us. Invisible though we may be, we exist!
Christ is coming soon, are you watching and waiting for Him or are you looking for someone else?
The faith that survives not the dungeon is no faith.
With lukewarmness prevailing, the dungeon need not have shackles and chains, or mud and mire, the dungeon can be anywhere a believer is. My little dungeon has been the best school of Christ anyone could ever have asked for, and I would not trade it for anything.
When the Lord delivers His people, He provides everything that is needed for those delivered.
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Casting,
As a devout Reformed theologian, I realize you prefer to dwell in the church of Sardis where spiritual death reigns (Rev 3:1). I realize you will probably not recognize the signs of the coming of Christ (Rev 3:3). But take heart, the Lord says there are a few names EVEN in Sardis, that are His. Is it possible that you might be one?
Lee
It may do us well to heed the advice of Thomas Watson.
He says: Satan is always ready to pick off the lone ship who is not a part of a convoy.
Heb: 13:7–Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you, and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried away by strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace,
Now you and I are in this category, like it or not. You seem to be teaching one thing, I another. Your teaching is obviously unscriptural, but I am sure you will respond for the most part with an old testament scripture that seems primarily dealing with the prophets lamenting over Israels disobedience to God at that time and place in history. Now I am not saying that we can’t use those scriptures and gain principles from them for today.
Hermeneutically you are off base with those arguments to support your view of no church for today. I am sure you are well aware that the church era did not begin until the book of acts or new Testament.
We would do better to gain our view of ecclisiology there.
Now if you remember you have accused me of being many things since this dialogue began, ( Frank Turk, Phil Johnson, liar, non christian, holding to forms, prideful, christless in testimony, executioneer, inquisitioner, hood wearer, sin defender, slitherer, thrilled that you do not attend a church, playing games, looking like someone who is preventing your testimony, a dry husk and a Sardis church dweller)
I don’t know if you really sound like someone who needs to be followed.
I would like to ask you to put the quality of your repentance to the test.
The bottom line here is you are in the danger of apostasizing from the gospel without being in a body of believers. You are putting your family in jeopardy as well. As well as those immature christians who stumble over your website. It is encouraging a struggling believer to leave or stay out of a church.
Now we both agree that there are times when we have to break fellowship with other professing believers and churches at times. But not to completely forsake seeking a new church family. It can be tough to find a sound church. But they are out there. I have repeatedly asked you if you needed any help. Also there is nothing wrong with holding a house church with other believers who you can be accountable to.
By the way, I have asked you if you assemble with other believers and have gotten no response.
It seems that by what lil you have wrote about your past experinces you were offended by some church or church entity and it has made you extremely bitter. You must forgive and move on.
I didn’t come here to bash you personally. I think I have refrained from that. You have done enough of that for the both of us.
I am questioning your teaching on ecclesiology or lack there of.
Again it is unscriptural. Now there is a lot of very, very good material on your website. But I would like to see you remove the unscriptural teachings.
I have said enough here on your blog about this subject. I will sincerely include you and your family in our prayers
Feel free to put up a link to your church.
Perhaps some of what I am trying to tell you will make sense to you if you realize the Bible version you keep quoting was founded and instituted by Dewey Lockman, proud to be a mason.
http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php
“But dollars cannot measure what Dewey Lockman meant. He was a well-known local leader, and a philanthropist. He was active in the Gideon Society for 31 years, and a member of the Masonic Order.”
The apostasy is deep………very deep.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Read this again, it’s not even written by me, it’s written by J.C. Ryle.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/fundamentally/fund3/Fundc23.html
“It is a Church which is dependent upon no ministers upon earth, however much it values those who preach the Gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon church membership, and baptism, and the Lord’s Supper-although they highly value these things, when they are to be had. But it has only one great Head one Shepherd, one chief Bishop-and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, by His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it-neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the Gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism-the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper; but he eats Christ’s body and drinks Christ’s blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be excommunicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.
It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates, or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it; it has often been driven into the wilderness or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die.”
Hi Mr. Rankel,
I have been following the conversation and Nolan has said that it would be fine for me to enter here and he will reply to you when he can. First off, I do not disagree with what you are saying in all respects. I believe the article you posted from JC Ryle to be very accurate and true. We all must be sure of what “church’ we belong to. I do not take that to mean that he is opposed to one going to the visible church. I would assume you agree with having the visible church in theory. I understand you to say that if the church you attend is apostate, leave. I agree.
I have not been to every part of your site but have been to alot of the links and pages. Do you have a section that I missed about what constitutes a good bible based VISIBLE church? Do you have a place that encourages believers to gather as not to forsake the gathering of the saints? That would be what troubles me most is that your site seems to discourage raher than encourage, any physical gathering and scripture is so clear on us being together for different reasons.
I see that you are of the King James Only persuasion so I can assure you that you will not think highly of the church we attend but here is the web address. http://www.christfellowship.cc
We have been through the controversy of this issue and we do not have a problem with NKJV or NASB.
Our church plays the old hymns, we do not have drums, we do not have a charasmatic (if that is even the term) style of worship BUT we do not have a problem with those that do. We do not go beyond what is written and although there is certainly an appropriate way to do worship we cannot impose our “don’t dance” when King David danced (just an example). So we are definetely not at all on the same page with some of these issues, that aside, your site is very on target with belonging to Christs Church and not mans.
In my “not at all authoritative opinion”, I do believe your site lacks the encouragement of the things scripture speaks to as far as assembling.
We have left churches for things that were not right and scriptural. Yes, we have had to stand alone in a fight for Gods word. Yes, we have lost family and friends for Christ. Yes, we love Christ and seek protection of His word. That is why we care about what you put out there for our brothers and sisters to see. (i answer because Jean asked) The bible speaks to having heard both sides before making a decision on things and to test the spirits so that is what we are seeking to do.
I really appreciate your taking the time to answer what things you have. I am really concerned with new believers being led astray by all the false things they can find on the internet and just pray that you would encourage them to seek out godly influences to be in worship with. To hold them accountable, to help them out, to be serving with, to learn from as not to be blown about by every wind. I believe that is why the question, do YOU gather with others for all the reasons that scripture gives? is important enough to anwer.
Thank you again for the conversation…………………………………………..
Well there Mrs. welcome to the discussion, and thanks for the response.
These are the very first words on my site which should show my mandate.
“This site exists for the “Invisible Church”, the church of the firstborn, the saved of all generations-the Bride of Christ. Though extremely rare in these last days, there is a possibility that some of you may still have a sound visible church to commune with, for which you should be truly grateful; others of you may have been forced out, or simply have come out from the visible church; while there may be others of you that still meet with an apostate visible church, spiritually yearning and yet wondering, “Where do I go? What should I do?” I pray this site will offer assistance of some kind for current and future members of the “Invisible Church” of the Lord Jesus Christ. ”
I realize there are gatherings of believers out there, yet my mandate from the Lord is to prepare those believers who have no one to meet with and nowhere else to turn but Christ, to be able to walk alone as the need arises. I realize it is a bit of an awkward position (kind of like the Lord asking you to slay your own son), but the faith required to take this stand is no less than that of Abraham, and is a most necessary instruction for these last days for many reasons.
It is easy for people to sit inside their churches and tell others to get in, but the facts are that there are so many people who have no sound place of fellowship within 100 miles. With that in mind, if they themselves are a child of God, the best advice is not to tell them to move to a place of fellowhiip but rather to be a domestic missionary. Spurgeon, Moody and the gang brought in the hopperfuls, today we are left with the gleaning to find the odd kernel here and there. In most cases that doesn’t amount to a church full of people, at best it is one or two here or there.
What is going on in the church today reminds me of 1938 Russia. The people were fleeing Russia for their lives only to be beaten back in at the borders to face a terribly unpleasant death.
BTW:
My position on Bible versions is anti-modern version, for obvious reasons. If you prefer, read the Geneva Bible, or Luther’s German.
Thank you for the response and the welcome. Great idea about the Geneva Bible, I really have been wanting to get one. I started reading the NKJV and have looked up the scriptures that differ because I was attending a King James only church. The pastor equipped me with all of the literature and the variations and after MUCH prayer and seeking the Lord on this issue I am OK with what I have. I have also read both sides of the issue thoroughly. Of course in serving and reading aloud in the group setting I read the King James. Now, I am sure I do not need to tell you about the visible fruit in the lives of most if not all of the people proudly clinging to their prize version that was read on Sunday only.
Now as for the opening statement on your site it was good.
By the time I finished going through your site it was forgotten. There must not have been much more that sounded encouraging to the visible church member. I am just being honest that it sounds more “anti-visible church” than “sorrowful that I cannot find one”. And please know that I am not critizing you or your site. I am just telling you how it is to a visitor of your site. It could just be me, maybe others that are in a good visible church would not agree. I have been told that I am big into encouraging so it could just be that. Food for thought anyway.
I live in a place that while it is hard to find a good church they are out there and there are also ALOT of house churches. I really do feel for you if you live in a place where gathering with any believers outside of your family is impossible. Do you know other believers personally and at least get to fellowship with them? I know that in other countries people must do underground church for fear of their lives so I am thankful that we are not there yet.
BTW: did you mention anywhere on your site what exactly would be good things about the visible church for those that come across here and just arent sure about theirs? I know alot of new believers may not even think about it, they just hear Jesus and think its of God.
Lee
I do not know where you got this mandate. God would never give one of His children an instruction that goes against any of his commands.
Now you can cherry pick some verses out of context and smash into any text to further your own agenda, (jehovahs witness, mormons and the like). Your story sounds compelling, but when chased to it’s root it is wrong.
If you want to examine the fruit, you have to go back to the root.
There has to be some other source that you are getting information from.
Although, I will admit that you really seem to be an intelligent man you must be getting this type of info from alternate sources outside of scripture. Since it is not biblical. I have traced back some of the links you post and then looked at some of their links, and then some of their links. I find that there is some really bad teachings among those sites. Some of those sources were considered to even be cultish.
Again you are putting yourself in a very grave position. Please reconsider what you are saying.
I am not saying that someone has to be in a visible church enviornment to be saved. I know that there are many in church who profess Christ but do not posess Christ. Your writings are promoting people to leave their church enviornment. They need to leave bad churches but then they need to seek fellowship with other beleivers.
I have tried to be a help to you.
I have said enough on this subject and it has taken up too much of my time as it is. You may never see it from a sound view. That is ultimately between you and God. I would really encourage you to do a very indepth study of 1&2 Timothy. I will only read your response and not answer anymore.
may God change your heart through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Sincerely in my prayers
The Mrs said “I know alot of new believers may not even think about it, they just hear Jesus and think its of God.”
I kinda of agree with you, I got saved outside the church and knew no other believers, so I thought anyone who said God was a Christian, I went to all sorts of churchs in search of the truth, very hard to find. 2 years ago the Lord led me to a baptist church, they have the sound doctrine but lacks zeal, holiness and are kind of one foot in the world one in Christ. I am not like minded to many if not all of them, in fact some think I have some strong views only because I love the Lord and thats all I care about. Even though I would rather leave that church and have tried to, the Lord wants me there and He closes doors for me to leave. So I am in membership of a local visible church.
And for me personally I do not think the Lord wants me to be in isolation, He wants me to fellowship with other “Christians” for a reason I am not fully aware of. Maybe because I do not have fellowship at home….
As for Lee I think he may be misunderstood. His website is very good and its encouraging to those believers who are alone, believe me there are out there…alone without any one to fellowship with or to talk to about the Lord.
His ministry is for that, so instead of discouraging Lee, we all agree that he has a lot of sound material on his website and I believe his theology is sound. His ministry is just not what we are used to, but its to reach out to those without a visible church, who walk alone, who do not even know any believers in their life, as much as we might not like to think so, those people are out there…
And Lee’s family are saved so in a way he is not isolated as he has other believers in his life. I think Lee’s ministry is different and so needed in these last days.. I have been saved for a few years now and I have not found a like minded believer let alone a visible Church where I live, even though I am in membership of one. So I understand where Lee is coming from, been there….Even though I long to be in fellowship with other believers every sundays and meet regularly with them, there are just not there! Its just a fact. Thats my take
Thanks for the support Jean! That is pretty well it.
I have been reading through much of the comments on both sides. This is the thing…we can’t expect God to work the same way in each of us. God works individually in each others lives, one he may call out of a visible church for a season or permanently. I think Casting and Mrs should heed themselves, though you speak out of concern, you might think that your words might cause confusion to the person who might know or feel God has called them out and struggle with being out of “church”, for the reason of tradition and condemnation; thought you might feel you are helping it could be causing doubt and fear.
The deception is that we think true fellowship occurs only in a building on Sunday, That sharpening iron means that you have to wait till the next Sunday to see the same folks. many believers put there identity in the fact that they are in church and they have friends that chat with them and tell them, “I will be praying for you…see you next week!”
If a believer is truly seeking the Lord, even if one is in obedience or disobedience God is faithful. We left our home church about a couple of years ago, we left not with the attention to be permanent but to find a solid biblical church that is genuine in what they teach. we visited a couple of church recommended through others, visited about four that are considered biblical. But as time went on, it was just the same thing but different location…though the doctrine was pretty good….it lacked. that was within a years time and now about 6 months we have not been in a “church” though it has been tough at times, we sense Gods peace. DO I think it is permanent…no! I don’t know what God is doing, but I know He is leading me and my family. My wife as actually grown more in this short time than the times in church. We can’t allow tradition to put a snare on what the Lord wants to do in each of our lives.
20″Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21″Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22″Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23″But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Your brother In Christ
Mike
Jean, Thank you for your comments in response to my post. I feel like I was encouraging as much as I could. I agree with everything EXCEPT the idea of being a “loneranger christian” for years. I do not agree with it only because it is not found in scripture. So I encourage where i can but still must be true to scripture. I see how important the visible church is in the Old and New Testament. God never changes and His word does not give us a place to voluntarily be on our own. That is all that I am saying. Yes, if there is a season so be it. But listen, when Paul was in jail he preached and people became converted. He wasnt going to be alone for long. It should not be discouraging to say what the word says. It should bring hope that Yes the Lord will build His church and Yes I need to pray for others and witness and give testimony and be an encouragement to other christians that I may be used by God to bring about a change in their life. It reminds me of women staying with non believing husbands that they may be won without a word.
See, a person in my old church really hurt one of my children. We stayed until God showed us where we should be. I look back and see Gods hand in all of it and IT WAS HARD but it was what we had to do. Satan would have loved for us to jump out and be alone because he divides. I could have had a million reasons why we could have just left and never went back but we followed scripture and we went through Matthew 18 and we were blessed with a a group of like minded believers to fellowship with. I only tell you this to assure you that I am not speaking out of my opinion but out of my own trials that God used for me to share. Of course you are where you are for a reason, God is totally using you in some way. I only know that because scripture says it.
Again, I am encouraging where I feel I can be while being true to Gods word. I am truly blessed to be where I am and to anyone that does not have even as much as you do Jean then for them I am praying. Much blessings to you and I pray the Lord uses you mightily to be a testimony in your group of believers.
Mike, Hi!
I apologize if it is coming out that way and will try to be careful from here out.
Just wanted to respond to your post since you directed a portion of it to me. I agree God works in believers lives in different ways but He always works in ways that scripture speaks to. Different people, different ways, same Word, same God. I assure you that I heeded myself and prayed over the days proceeding my post. As you see, I waited quite a while to say anything to Lee and I think he would agree that I was not contrary to him at all. One of the problems with posting is that I may be coming across in a tone that I do not really have. I have four kids and worked with kids in a school setting so work with me on sounding so direct and possibly bossy.
You misunderstand me if you think I in ANY WAY think church is on Sunday. I know that church is all believers. I know we live in the face of God. I know that we are the church. I speak of the importance of the visible church. Not of traditions but of the scripture that speaks of the importance of the visible church. The iron sharpening is continual in my life. Those people that I see “at church” are in my life as my family. I am in no way “doing church” I live in another state and believe me I long to cross state lines to be in closer fellowship with other believers. God has graciously provided the transportaion for us to be involved in serving others thru that means of the body. We are not socializing there. We are speaking to each other in psalms and hymns, we are considering each better than ourselves, we are carrying one anothers burdens, we are taking care of the body that needs to be cared for. All the things that scripture speaks of us doing thru the visible church.
I just say that attention should be paid to telling struggling believers what signs to be on the lookout for. Questions should be asked such as, what are the major reasons to leave? what are the reasons to stay?, how do you handle it? , did you get wise counsel? did you go to thru the men God has placed in authority over that church? those kind of things. I thought I was very encouraging and positive. I didnt just come in and say what I thought was wrong, I came in and gave what I saw as a sister in Christ to be needed for this type of site. We can never be in a position where we do not seek godly counsel and think so highly of ourselves that we do not listen to suggestions that others may have form scripture itself. The Lord totally put me in the path of Lee for a reason and I have lovingly said the things that I see needed to be said. I feel as if you fault me for that. I do not think that the visible church is a tradition of men but an institution of God. We just must leave for the right reasons and it must be scriptural. I believe that is all I am saying and that yes, that is what the Lord has had me to say to Lee.
I understand the scripture you quoted to be in reference to WHERE worship should be held. The Jews and the samaritans KNEW that God had commanded that there be a PLACE of worship. They argued over that place. Not should there be a place at all.
That is not what I am doing. Again, I speak to the passage in Hebrews that says not to forsake the gathering of the saints. I never said where. Thank you for your comments and I hope I have answered you sufficiently. Much love and prayer to you and your family as you seek to find other believers to worship and live out your life serving the Lord with.
Lee,
Thanks for allowing me the space to say what I feel like the Lord wanted me to say. I hope you do not mind me commetning back to the posts that spoke to me. Again, all I have said before stands and I wish the best in your ministry. I pray that you seek counsel with other true, mature believers. I pray that you study the text that warns of forsaking the assembling and i pray the Lord leads you to a group of like minded believers to fellowship with. I just do not see where we were menat to do it alone for years. We are even commanded to go into the prisons so they do not have to do it alone. I pray God uses these conversations for our good and His glory. In His service and mighty name, praise be to our savior Jesus, on that I know we all agree! Blessings
Mr. and Mrs.
I thank you for your concern and for taking your time to voice it. But as you probably realize, I fully understand the ramifications. May the Lord judge between me and thee.
I think what you guys are missing how God leads His own children through the wilderness and most often, it is alone. You have been provided fellowship because you need it, and as you have inferred, without it you would fall. You were not meant for the wilderness.
The wilderness is reserved for those who God wants to go straight to the well, rather than the bucket. No man chooses the wilderness naturally, it is thrust upon him as the winds on the forest. These in the wilderness are the trees at the edge of the forest who take the wind and grow stronger. Cut these trees down and the inner rows fall at the slightest breeze. You live in the inner rows, snuggled in amongst the trees and are thankful for your safety. Nothing wrong with that. However some will always have to be on the outer edge to take the wind with little protection, other than that they have seen the wind enough to have grown strong enough to withstand it. I understand your fear of the edge, and were I an inner tree I would fear it too, but having been an outer tree for quite some time now, the blowing winds have caused strength where there was no strength. Some of that strength I came here to pass on for other trees on the edge. If that frightens you, move on, or sit back and listen, because others need the help in this time of the greatest apostasy.
In Canada things are much different than you will imagine, I believe China may be in better condition. You will be thankful that you don’t live here where we get a front row seat of the apostasy.
Here is the last paragraph from my opening page.
“When Christ came the first time the visible Jewish church was in total apostasy, even crucifying the Lord of Glory; when Christ returns the second time the visible Gentile church will be in a similar condition; with all indications pointing to that time being very near. There may be some of Christ’s Bride still amongst the various visible churches and denominations, but there will not be many of His Bride in any particular church or denomination. With the apostasy nearly complete amongst the visible church, my hope is to help prepare you to stand alone, firmly grounded in Christ; a full member of the “Invisible Church”. May the Lord make this site a blessing to you. ”
BTW You can be just as alone inside your church as outside (IE Jean), as Tozer put it so well.
http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/invisibly/The_Saint_Must_Walk_Alone.html
“The man who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him. A certain amount of social fellowship will of course be his as he mingles with religious persons in the regular activities of the church, but true spiritual fellowship will be hard to find. But he should not expect things to be otherwise. After all, he is a stranger and a pilgrim, and the journey he takes is not on his feet but in his heart. He walks with God in the garden of his own soul and who but God can walk there with him? He is of another spirit from the multitudes that tread the courts of the Lord’s house. He has seen that of which they have only heard, and he walks among them somewhat as Zacharias walked after his return from the altar when the people whispered, “He has seen a vision.””
To Mrs
Just wanted to clarify a different position that may have not been thought about. No harm no foul.
Mike
And therein lies the problem.
There are different positions of Christians throughout the world, some only see theirs.
To All
Antichrist will be the head of both a political and religious system. For this to happen as it must, the endgame is that we are heading to zero Christians in the visible church, yet the church must remain fully functional to be used of the Antichrist during the Tribulation period. That can only mean that as the pulpit and pew in the visible church are completely taken over by the heathen, more and more Christians will be facing this problem of nowhere to fellowship.
Make no mistake about it, the church will hand out the mark of the beast during the Tribulation period. It will be through replacement theology and sleight of hand with Rev 7:3-4 and 13:16. Those who are secular will receive it in the hand from the government, and those in religion will receive it in the head from their church. To do this the church will have to be fully functional, including pastors, elders etc. giving reason for it to be trusted. Part of that strong delusion in 2 Thess 2:10-12.
Pretty easy to see that the Rick Warrens, Joel Osteens and Benny Hinns will still be here preaching. It gets harder to admit when it may be one whose doctrine aligns much closer to our own. Nevertheless, the ditches of formalism, legalism and hypocrisy are just as deep as the ditches of antinomianism, easy believism, and strange fire.
Therefore I also try to provide some heads up for those who will become Christians after the rapture. Some might be friends, others might be family, either way I hope to be able to help them as well.
To Mike
Its cool! Many blessings and prayers your way! Thanks for the conversation.
“My wife as actually grown more in this short time than the times in church. We can’t allow tradition to put a snare on what the Lord wants to do in each of our lives.”
Mike I can identify with your wife so much. I too seem to grow more and learn from the Lord more when I am outside the visible Church, its always been the case in my walk. Again I have no idea what the Lord is doing or why he lets me walk in the wilderness, but I know that He leads me. In the wilderness I seem to flourish and spread my wings freely, in the visible Church all people try to do is stop me from spreading my wings, they try to silence me. But God in his sovereignty He wants me in the Church I am currently in, I just wish I knew why….I do not grow there and mostly I get discouraged. Is it permanent? I dont know, maybe not.
“He wants me in the Church I am currently in, I just wish I knew why….I do not grow there and mostly I get discouraged. Is it permanent? I dont know, maybe not.”
I know what you are going through at you church, it is such a hard time even though you are within a community of people you still feel alone and in isolation…no one understands you and if you try to share your heart and struggles, it like you are talking to a wall. It took a while for us to know it was time to go. And you will know when it will be your time if the Lord allows it. Hang in there…!!
Mike
Jean
“But God in his sovereignty He wants me in the Church I am currently in, I just wish I knew why….I do not grow there and mostly I get discouraged. Is it permanent? I dont know, maybe not.”
Perhaps it is just to increase your thirst for the very person of Christ Himself. Kind of like drinking salt water. It never satisfies the thirst, all it does is cause one to crave fresh water even more.
The forms don’t cut it, the fellowship doesn’t cut it, but they can be the means the Lord uses to cause you to seek out in solitude that which they fail to provide.
Thank you Mike and Lee for the encouragement.
I think I speak for both of us in saying it is both our pleasure and privilege to be able to help, as the Lord gleans forth those outer fruits from this fallen world.
Isa 17:6-8
6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel.
7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.
8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.