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	<title>Comments on: The discernment of saints (Part 2)</title>
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	<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/</link>
	<description>...for the church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven...</description>
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		<title>By: ricky</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-883</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ricky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read this again brother Rankel and really grabbed what you were saying when I did so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read this again brother Rankel and really grabbed what you were saying when I did so.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Melissa, good to hear from you again. I was going to check and see how you were doing. I knew you would be one who would keep thinking on this stuff.

One of the problems with JM is that as a Mr. Facingbothways he faces whichever direction the wind is blowing.
 
You see, Macarthur also writes this in his sermon “Slave of Christ”

&lt;em&gt;“The second point: Christians are slaves. You might have a hard time buying into that. Doulos is used 130 times in the NT, and with other forms up to 150 times. And in 1 Cor 7:22 we are called Christ’s douloi. This word means one thing: “slave.” It’s all it ever means, nothing else. It’s a person owned, a person with no rights, no freedom, no standing. A slave could not own property, give testimony in a court of law, could not seek reparations from a civil court of law. No autonomy and no freedom. Doulos means that!”&lt;/em&gt;

Without freedom, there is no love, and without love there is no salvation.

Then he goes on and destroys this verse.

&lt;em&gt;“In John 15:14 we read this: “You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.” This is one of the richest of all passages. The word of note here is slaves. No longer do I merely call you slaves, no longer only slaves; I now call you friends. But you are friends who are slaves, because you are my friends if you do what I command.”&lt;/em&gt;

The way he connects friends with slaves is worthy of any cult.

John 15:14-15

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants (doulos); for the servant (doulos) knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

When we read the verse simply and plainly it clearly states Christ doesn’t call his friends doulos anymore, He simply calls them friends.

And you are correct, that it is not so much the use of the particular word as the understanding of the use of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Melissa, good to hear from you again. I was going to check and see how you were doing. I knew you would be one who would keep thinking on this stuff.</p>
<p>One of the problems with JM is that as a Mr. Facingbothways he faces whichever direction the wind is blowing.</p>
<p>You see, Macarthur also writes this in his sermon “Slave of Christ”</p>
<p><em>“The second point: Christians are slaves. You might have a hard time buying into that. Doulos is used 130 times in the NT, and with other forms up to 150 times. And in 1 Cor 7:22 we are called Christ’s douloi. This word means one thing: “slave.” It’s all it ever means, nothing else. It’s a person owned, a person with no rights, no freedom, no standing. A slave could not own property, give testimony in a court of law, could not seek reparations from a civil court of law. No autonomy and no freedom. Doulos means that!”</em></p>
<p>Without freedom, there is no love, and without love there is no salvation.</p>
<p>Then he goes on and destroys this verse.</p>
<p><em>“In John 15:14 we read this: “You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.” This is one of the richest of all passages. The word of note here is slaves. No longer do I merely call you slaves, no longer only slaves; I now call you friends. But you are friends who are slaves, because you are my friends if you do what I command.”</em></p>
<p>The way he connects friends with slaves is worthy of any cult.</p>
<p>John 15:14-15</p>
<p>14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants (doulos); for the servant (doulos) knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.</p>
<p>When we read the verse simply and plainly it clearly states Christ doesn’t call his friends doulos anymore, He simply calls them friends.</p>
<p>And you are correct, that it is not so much the use of the particular word as the understanding of the use of it.</p>
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		<title>By: melissa</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[melissa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Lee,
I know you would want to be correct on what you attribute to whom so here is what Macarthur says in his notes: 
Romans 1:1
footnotes
&quot;bondservant, Doulos, the common NT word for servant. Although in Greek culture it most often refered to the involuntary permanent service of a slave, Paul elevates this word by using it in the Hebrew sense to describe a servant who willingly commits himself to serve a master he loves and respects&quot;.....
Macarthur seems to understand the word in the same context as you do. It seems as if it not so much the word chosen but the actual relationship.  Doulos means slave as in one being owned by another, the same goes for the meaning of bondservant in the NT. Macarthur and others  freely interchange between servant and slave in various writings and commentaries.  When I read your post it sounded as if you were saying that to use the legitimate words &quot;slave&quot; and &quot;master&quot; meant you werent saved when clearly scripture refers to us as doulos as well as the bride as well as heirs as well as children..but i see from your response to Lewis that you dont mean the use of the word but what the persons understanding of that word is. Is that correct?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lee,<br />
I know you would want to be correct on what you attribute to whom so here is what Macarthur says in his notes:<br />
Romans 1:1<br />
footnotes<br />
&#8220;bondservant, Doulos, the common NT word for servant. Although in Greek culture it most often refered to the involuntary permanent service of a slave, Paul elevates this word by using it in the Hebrew sense to describe a servant who willingly commits himself to serve a master he loves and respects&#8221;&#8230;..<br />
Macarthur seems to understand the word in the same context as you do. It seems as if it not so much the word chosen but the actual relationship.  Doulos means slave as in one being owned by another, the same goes for the meaning of bondservant in the NT. Macarthur and others  freely interchange between servant and slave in various writings and commentaries.  When I read your post it sounded as if you were saying that to use the legitimate words &#8220;slave&#8221; and &#8220;master&#8221; meant you werent saved when clearly scripture refers to us as doulos as well as the bride as well as heirs as well as children..but i see from your response to Lewis that you dont mean the use of the word but what the persons understanding of that word is. Is that correct?</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-438</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Lewis

A slave serves unwillingly out of fear, whereas a servant serves willingly out of love. If you belong to the bride of Christ, you will not serve unwillingly out of fear, but rather willingly out of love. 

The KJV translators knew God and understood this, which is why they have translated it as &#039;servant&#039;. Those who translate it as &#039;slave&#039; (IE Macarthur et al) at the very least don&#039;t understand this, and at the worst they simply don&#039;t know God. 

&lt;em&gt;&quot;Doulos is a legal status, making one person the property of another person who has all rights to the labor and production of his property. Hence the doulos serves his owner. Contrary to common belief, the doulos was well cared for, was often better skilled and educated than his master, enjoyed great freedom of trade and mobility, and was able to rise to high posts of power, respect, and influence. It was common for a person to sell himself into doulos in order to improve his position in life. The abject slave was more often an unpardoned prisoner of war or a criminal.

At the time of the writing of the KJV, the two terms — slave and servant — were not as carefully distinguished as they are today.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
The difference is the pardon. The slave is an UNPARDONED criminal and must fear, the servant is a PARDONED criminal and will love.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lewis</p>
<p>A slave serves unwillingly out of fear, whereas a servant serves willingly out of love. If you belong to the bride of Christ, you will not serve unwillingly out of fear, but rather willingly out of love. </p>
<p>The KJV translators knew God and understood this, which is why they have translated it as &#8216;servant&#8217;. Those who translate it as &#8216;slave&#8217; (IE Macarthur et al) at the very least don&#8217;t understand this, and at the worst they simply don&#8217;t know God. </p>
<p><em>&#8220;Doulos is a legal status, making one person the property of another person who has all rights to the labor and production of his property. Hence the doulos serves his owner. Contrary to common belief, the doulos was well cared for, was often better skilled and educated than his master, enjoyed great freedom of trade and mobility, and was able to rise to high posts of power, respect, and influence. It was common for a person to sell himself into doulos in order to improve his position in life. The abject slave was more often an unpardoned prisoner of war or a criminal.</p>
<p>At the time of the writing of the KJV, the two terms — slave and servant — were not as carefully distinguished as they are today.&#8221;</em><br />
The difference is the pardon. The slave is an UNPARDONED criminal and must fear, the servant is a PARDONED criminal and will love.</p>
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		<title>By: Lewis Churchill</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-437</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lewis Churchill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-437</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m confused about number 2. If you veiw Christ as master and yourself a slave to Him, that it indicates unbelief. Paul in Romans, Phillipians, and Titus refered to himself as a slave to Jesus Christ. This would indicate that he obviously veiws Christ as His master. James refers to him self this way and so does Peter (2peter1;1) and jude(1;1). The direct translation of the word doulos is slave. Now given it is obviously indicated that these apostles love Christ and belonged to Him. but your statement in #2 would indicate otherwise. Please explain the logic on this particular point in harmony with the Word of God. The others are spot on but number two seems contradictory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused about number 2. If you veiw Christ as master and yourself a slave to Him, that it indicates unbelief. Paul in Romans, Phillipians, and Titus refered to himself as a slave to Jesus Christ. This would indicate that he obviously veiws Christ as His master. James refers to him self this way and so does Peter (2peter1;1) and jude(1;1). The direct translation of the word doulos is slave. Now given it is obviously indicated that these apostles love Christ and belonged to Him. but your statement in #2 would indicate otherwise. Please explain the logic on this particular point in harmony with the Word of God. The others are spot on but number two seems contradictory.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Jesus is the tree of life. He is alive. He is risen above that dead wood.&quot;

Indeed He is and He has!

Acts 17:29-30
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man&#039;s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The symbol of the cross is for those to whom the person of Christ is not revealed in a better manner. 

IE I could wear my wife&#039;s hat on my head to remind me of her, or I could just spend more time with her. Because she is my wife I have no need of the former because I do the latter. Same with Christ and symbols of Him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Jesus is the tree of life. He is alive. He is risen above that dead wood.&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed He is and He has!</p>
<p>Acts 17:29-30<br />
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man&#8217;s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:</p>
<p>The symbol of the cross is for those to whom the person of Christ is not revealed in a better manner. </p>
<p>IE I could wear my wife&#8217;s hat on my head to remind me of her, or I could just spend more time with her. Because she is my wife I have no need of the former because I do the latter. Same with Christ and symbols of Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-414</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Randy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Again….More food for thought…..Maybe....

It is quite interesting to me that the cross our Savior was crucified on was made of wood that was hand hewn by men. It was made of dead wood. It was planted in the ground by men. It had no life in it. It has become a symbol (perhaps an idol) to so many, many….of us. We have even gold plated it and wear it as an ornament of jewelry.

Jesus is the tree of life. He is alive. He is risen above that dead wood.

It seems, that perhaps this could be a picture of the structures that men build to support their carnal faith. Most organized, institutional, religious buildings, (the things they call “churches”, usually have a cross mounted somewhere inside where their congregations can’t miss seeing it. If Jesus would have been killed by a gun maybe that they might have guns, mounted behind their podiums on the wall, instead of a cross, or wear gold plated guns on a neclace around their necks.

I just seems kind of ironic that Jesus was crucified on what seems to be an image of man’s typical, fleshly view of judgement and the law.

After all, we are the church, not buildings made of wood hewn by men, and mounted in the ground by men, like that dead wooden cross.

I prefer to cling to Jesus like you are doing; not the “Old wooden cross” It reminds me too much of clinging to the “Old wooden church building” or even an upgraded, gold plated version of a church building.

Great article you have posted here.

Have a great day in Jesus

Randy]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Again….More food for thought…..Maybe&#8230;.</p>
<p>It is quite interesting to me that the cross our Savior was crucified on was made of wood that was hand hewn by men. It was made of dead wood. It was planted in the ground by men. It had no life in it. It has become a symbol (perhaps an idol) to so many, many….of us. We have even gold plated it and wear it as an ornament of jewelry.</p>
<p>Jesus is the tree of life. He is alive. He is risen above that dead wood.</p>
<p>It seems, that perhaps this could be a picture of the structures that men build to support their carnal faith. Most organized, institutional, religious buildings, (the things they call “churches”, usually have a cross mounted somewhere inside where their congregations can’t miss seeing it. If Jesus would have been killed by a gun maybe that they might have guns, mounted behind their podiums on the wall, instead of a cross, or wear gold plated guns on a neclace around their necks.</p>
<p>I just seems kind of ironic that Jesus was crucified on what seems to be an image of man’s typical, fleshly view of judgement and the law.</p>
<p>After all, we are the church, not buildings made of wood hewn by men, and mounted in the ground by men, like that dead wooden cross.</p>
<p>I prefer to cling to Jesus like you are doing; not the “Old wooden cross” It reminds me too much of clinging to the “Old wooden church building” or even an upgraded, gold plated version of a church building.</p>
<p>Great article you have posted here.</p>
<p>Have a great day in Jesus</p>
<p>Randy</p>
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		<title>By: Jean</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This explains a lot of things to me, (especially situations in my church). I have given much thought to your reply,  and all I can say is you got it brother! God who did not spare His own Son for us, will He not also freely give us all things, including wisdom and understanding. Truly amazing the work the Lord has done in you and your family!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This explains a lot of things to me, (especially situations in my church). I have given much thought to your reply,  and all I can say is you got it brother! God who did not spare His own Son for us, will He not also freely give us all things, including wisdom and understanding. Truly amazing the work the Lord has done in you and your family!</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jean

To determine truth from error is not what sets one apart as a Christian, for as the Christian may lack much knowledge of these things so a lost person may have much knowledge in them. Yet the Bible teaches that to be unable to discern the brethren is no quality of the saved, but is a quality of the lost.

Mal 3:17-18 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

Jonah 4:11...Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?


WHAT one knows is very different from WHO one knows, or more precisely WHO knows us. 

A couple examples:
1) I know of the Queen of England, but I do not know her. It is evident among those who know her, who else knows her as they talk about her. Why? because they know things that only come from knowing her. When she knows me, then it is a much closer relation.

2) You have lived in England, I have only read about it. When I start talking about England as though I know it, it soon becomes obvious to those of you that my knowledge of England is only second-hand. I wouldn&#039;t know anything that wasn&#039;t already written in a book, whereas you would know many of those things.

Now because of faulty understanding or memory, some of the details of each one&#039;s understanding may be skewed ( the WHAT), but the fact they know the Queen (the WHO) will be obvious to others who know the Queen.

Same with Christ, except that He has the power to perform a more recognizable surgery of heart, that leaves its marks.

Since the Christian is led of the Spirit, there is no &#039;analyzing&#039; per se required, one just knows because being led of the Spirit they recognize the scars of the surgery.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jean</p>
<p>To determine truth from error is not what sets one apart as a Christian, for as the Christian may lack much knowledge of these things so a lost person may have much knowledge in them. Yet the Bible teaches that to be unable to discern the brethren is no quality of the saved, but is a quality of the lost.</p>
<p>Mal 3:17-18 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.</p>
<p>Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.</p>
<p>Jonah 4:11&#8230;Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?</p>
<p>WHAT one knows is very different from WHO one knows, or more precisely WHO knows us. </p>
<p>A couple examples:<br />
1) I know of the Queen of England, but I do not know her. It is evident among those who know her, who else knows her as they talk about her. Why? because they know things that only come from knowing her. When she knows me, then it is a much closer relation.</p>
<p>2) You have lived in England, I have only read about it. When I start talking about England as though I know it, it soon becomes obvious to those of you that my knowledge of England is only second-hand. I wouldn&#8217;t know anything that wasn&#8217;t already written in a book, whereas you would know many of those things.</p>
<p>Now because of faulty understanding or memory, some of the details of each one&#8217;s understanding may be skewed ( the WHAT), but the fact they know the Queen (the WHO) will be obvious to others who know the Queen.</p>
<p>Same with Christ, except that He has the power to perform a more recognizable surgery of heart, that leaves its marks.</p>
<p>Since the Christian is led of the Spirit, there is no &#8216;analyzing&#8217; per se required, one just knows because being led of the Spirit they recognize the scars of the surgery.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/2009/08/11/the-discernment-of-saints-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-309</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:36:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogspot.theinvisiblechurch.ca/?p=111#comment-309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lee good stuff...really like 2 and 4. 

i sort of agree with Jean...not quite sure where you are going with this...believers can all lack discernment, but that doesn&#039;t indicate a lost person.  Don&#039;t presume that we are to analyze each person to see whether they are born again and if we can&#039;t determine this then it may be a red flag that we are not born again?  If you don&#039;t mind could you explain this please?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee good stuff&#8230;really like 2 and 4. </p>
<p>i sort of agree with Jean&#8230;not quite sure where you are going with this&#8230;believers can all lack discernment, but that doesn&#8217;t indicate a lost person.  Don&#8217;t presume that we are to analyze each person to see whether they are born again and if we can&#8217;t determine this then it may be a red flag that we are not born again?  If you don&#8217;t mind could you explain this please?</p>
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